Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 87

Reuters tweet FLASH: Japan nuclear safety agency says no chance of highly radioactive water from reactor turbine buildings flowing into the sea---- That is the tweet as it was tweeted twitter.com!/Reuters
by elainekirk 3/27/2011 11:57:27 AM

NEWS ADVISORY: TEPCO says radioactivity data of No. 2 reactor puddle partly erroneous (20:45)
by timme 3/27/2011 11:58:16 AM

@Matsuoko - that's what it looks like to me as well. In the Three Mile Island accident, they "vented" the radioactive water into the adjacent river.
by Miles 3/27/2011 11:59:51 AM

@timme :) that i expected.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:00:39 PM

Surprise that TEPCO tells that they are erroneous now...
by Mina 3/27/2011 12:02:08 PM

Looks like it's gonna be another BP day ;-)
by Miles 3/27/2011 12:03:09 PM

@timme : now that it is erroneous, they can send workers in to pump out the water. good idea from tepco.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:03:33 PM

@matsuoko: my thoughts exactly.. :(
by timme 3/27/2011 12:05:12 PM

hi every one.. this was an interesting read... www.zerohedge.com
by Dean 3/27/2011 12:05:40 PM

NY Times: "Nuclear Rules in Japan Relied on Old Science"
by sgl 3/27/2011 12:07:54 PM

oops link: www.nytimes.com
by sgl 3/27/2011 12:08:07 PM

@timme : i must say, this kind of news drives me crazy.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:08:38 PM

Re: "NISA on radioactive water not flowing to the sea". What are they smoking? The figures were a 1000 times above accepted maximum levesl 330meters from the plant. The dilution at that distance is huge. The water *is* leaking to the sea. What bothers me that they are still not releasing the Plutonium tests results, which they said they would test for already a week ago. This is another cover-up, on top of all the previous cover-ups. Really sad.
by vasra 3/27/2011 12:08:53 PM

@Matsuoko Yes, EU is rising the limits, perhaps due to some backhand dealings going behind the curtains at the WTO : j.mp .
by vasra 3/27/2011 12:08:57 PM

@vasra : they have had no problems banning imports from "bad" chernobyl, but japan, that's a completely different thing now.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:12:30 PM

To put things in perspective, Cesium-137 limits for meat and fish in Sweden has been 1500 Bq/kg for quite some time (possibly after Chernobyl). Raising the limit doesn't have to imply that WTO wants to kill EU citizens for profit.
by kb 3/27/2011 12:12:30 PM

@kb : yes for sure. nobody said that. they don't want to kill anyone.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:14:22 PM

@sims: not so easy. One cannot stop fission in a nuclear reactor: control rods cannot stop fission reactions _inside_ pellets, that's why the reactor goes on producing heat even when "stopped" and need to be cooled. If the amount of I-134 is more than what is supposed to be produced by a "stopped" reactor, then one can conclude that free running fission is going on. If not, it could be only a large part of fuel pellets that are broken but it can also be a few part of pellets that have fallen at the bottom of the reactor and that a free running fission has restarted here. I guess no one can conclude without seeing inside the reactor in such a case....
by Jo Lindien 3/27/2011 12:15:04 PM

@kb I think the point is that we have what could be called a news blackout and are getting very little info and to find that they are moving the goalposts without any attempt at informing the public automatically leads to great mistrust
by elainekirk 3/27/2011 12:16:13 PM

Correction: Swedish limits are 1500 Bq/kg for freshwater fish, game, mushrooms and berries, i.e. food produced in the wild. There was quite a lot of Cesium-137 fallout after Chernobyl.
by kb 3/27/2011 12:21:20 PM

good summary on health and radiation from a ministry: www.bfs.de
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:21:47 PM

@Dean: your opinion on this please. www.ustream.tv
by Tenzing 3/27/2011 12:21:51 PM

I think what Jo wrote is right based on the nuclear physicist & nuclear power plant engineer analyses I have read as well. The rods are damaged, this is known due to the zircalloy releases in the water. Some of the fuel could be chugging down to the bottom of the reactor. If enough of these pool together, the reaction can sustain better and the probability of containment breach is higher. Several Japanese experts have already said there's been a Loss of Coolant Accident (LOCA) at one or several reactors. This requires constand 2ndary cooling now, but the water does NOT reach the primary containment vessel (where the rods are), even if you pump it. This causes problems in trying to bring down the reaction under control. Experts cited are both NHK, Kyodo, Japan Times and CNIC commentators, some of which actually have designed parts of the Fukushima plant
by vasra 3/27/2011 12:21:51 PM

it's in english.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:22:07 PM

@Tenzing, read what I just posted about LOCA and cooling. I watched that whole CNIC presentation on Ustream yesterday. One of the guys there designed the turbine hall for one of the reactor plants at Fukushima. He talks about the pressure/temperature management challenges of the pressure containment vessel (PCV) and what happens when you drive the PCV out of spec (it vents radioactive steam, which can be highly radioactive if the rods are damaged, like they are now).
by vasra 3/27/2011 12:24:53 PM

@vasra: thank you
by Tenzing 3/27/2011 12:25:47 PM

The maximum dose for radioactive iodine, according to Euratom guidelines, is:
150 Bq/kg or becquerels per litre (Bq/l) for infant food
500 Bq/kg or Bq/l for dairy products
2,000 Bq/kg or Bq/l for other foods; and
500 Bq/l for liquids intended for consumption

The maximum dose of radioactive elements lasting beyond 10 days -- thus including caesium -- is:
400 Bq/kg or Bq/l for infant food
1,000 Bq/kg or Bq/l for dairy products
1,250 Bq/kg or Bq/l for other foods; and
1,000 Bq/l for liquids intended for consumption

Source: www.google.com
by kb 3/27/2011 12:26:42 PM

JAIF update www.jaif.or.jp : "It is presumed that radioactive material inside the reactor vessel would have leaked outside the containment vessel at unit-1, 2 and unit-3, based on the investigation of the water sampled at turbine building."
Jepco seawater mesurements update
by Jo Lindien 3/27/2011 12:30:31 PM

Tenzing, I was quite impressed by the presentation, they actually presented some logical explanation and used the isotope decay as an indicator as well. It would appear that the water found came from the reactor due to isotopes present. next is to really detail how.. I like the fact that they said there were isolation valves which should rule out the piping and the only other way is seepage from another source from the reactor
by Dean 3/27/2011 12:34:01 PM

Government asks treatment plants not to take in rain water. english.kyodonews.jp
by Scilla 3/27/2011 12:34:36 PM

The Japan Times online Sunday March 27, 2011 Radioactive pools block reactor repairs. search.japantimes.co.jp
by Tenzing 3/27/2011 12:35:08 PM

@vasra: "NISA on radioactive water not flowing to the sea". From my understanding, they do not say that no radioactivity is leaked into the sea but that the detected isotopes in the sea are not the same that the ones detected in the water leaked in the turbine chambers.
by Jo Lindien 3/27/2011 12:35:23 PM

@Dean: thank you.
by Tenzing 3/27/2011 12:36:20 PM

I have been thinking in my mind about how could the fuel be encapsulated in place, first in the reactor and then the spent fuel pools. in the reactor if there is a debris pool, maybe there is a way to pump some medium containing the sand which coverts to glass to encapsulate the fuel... just thinking out loud
by Dean 3/27/2011 12:39:03 PM

The Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare issued new limits on March, 17th. I have only seen this information on Japanese internet forums.

(Bq/kg)

Infant food: 100
Drinking water: I: 300, Cs: 200, U: 20, Pu+Am+Cm: 1
Dairy: I: 300, Cs: 200, U: 20, Pu+Am+Cm: 1
Vegetables (except daikon and potatoes): I: 2000, Cs: 500, U: 100, Pu+Am+Cm: 10
Grain: Cs: 500, U: 100, Pu+Am+Cm: 10
Meat, fish, eggs and other foods: Cs: 500, U: 100, Pu+Am+Cm: 10

Source: www.mhlw.go.jp
by kb 3/27/2011 12:39:28 PM

20:45 27 March
NEWS ADVISORY: TEPCO says radioactivity data of No. 2 reactor puddle partly erroneous.
by Scilla 3/27/2011 12:39:49 PM

english.kyodonews.jp
by Scilla 3/27/2011 12:40:02 PM

Scilla ty for the link.. this is what baffles me about data coming from there
by Dean 3/27/2011 12:40:29 PM

They say this mornings clear out was caused by faulty readings and was a false alarm.
by Jeff 3/27/2011 12:41:49 PM

Yeah, sure. First we give you the right information and later we call it into doubt. This makes me really angy! The same happened with the 500 Milli/Sievert in the turbine hall of reactor 3 that somehow mutated into 500 Micro/Sievert a few days ago.
by Salvador 3/27/2011 12:41:54 PM

I guess it's not fair to say, but I think tepco is saying the numbers had errors since people were able to figure out what the numbers meant.
by Scilla 3/27/2011 12:42:07 PM

Tepco is just a criminal organization, it's a farce that they are still in control of the work at Fukushima I.
by Salvador 3/27/2011 12:43:01 PM

Probably a dumb idea but I wonder if they could inject different colored or luminescent dye or even uncommon isotopes into the RPV cooling system and containment water supply and examine the leaked fluid for content or relative amounts if they both show up. Might at least pin point the leak points in the turbine room.
by gumba 3/27/2011 12:44:39 PM

it really makes me sick. they needed three days to realize the consequences. now their only chance is to disregard the readings.
by Matsuoko 3/27/2011 12:44:54 PM

A diagram from Asahi showing a simplified overview of the reactor and turbine halls as well as the basement, where the electricity work happened, injuring the three sub-contractor workers yesterday: j.mp
by vasra 3/27/2011 12:45:32 PM