Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1549

@Pedro Jesus Thanks for the good news. :-)))))
by Majj 6/8/2011 9:08:47 PM

@ALBLEE HI, good seeing you again even if you can't stay long. ;-)
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:09:18 PM

Thanks, @lillymunster and @elainekirk et al. I wonder how much longer before TEPCO management acknowledges in more certain terms the melt-through issue (if, indeed, factual), the way it took them 60 days or so with "meltdown".
by ALBLEE 6/8/2011 9:11:13 PM

TBS Cam reactor number 2 and 4 steaming ...
by Majj 6/8/2011 9:15:05 PM

@ALBLEE that part really worries me. What is left to admit? That this is out of the building?
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:16:41 PM

@ALBLEE The problem with that is all they can do for the next several years is make estimates and simulations. We won't know anything for sure until they open the RPV which cannot be done before 5 years, maybe more, from now. Most of us will have forgotten the issue by the time we finally find out what really happened inside those RPVs. They can't really admit what they don't know. They can only admit that the possibility is more or less likely with the information they have.
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:18:20 PM

@alblee they won't until it is common knowledge due to public liability issues they have obviously invested more in legal & PR than they have in worker welfare
@nancy looking for security came across this oldie they fascinate me looking back and I notice #4 took more damage than #3 to the lower portion but asking you if the right hand support on corner of 4 is bent? webcache.googleusercontent.com
by elainekirk 6/8/2011 9:18:23 PM

Until we get a phone call saying 'Elvis has left the building!' (meaning strong evidence that the core has completely melted through the secondary containment, and I'm terrified to imagine what that evidence would look like) we can only speculate.
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:23:33 PM

About unit 5:
by xxx 6/8/2011 9:24:16 PM

On the day of the earthquake, RPV pressure leakage tests had been conducted with fuel being loaded in the reactor.
...
In the reactor, the pressure had increased to 7.2 MPa because of the pressure leakage test; however, the equipment that had been applying pressure on the reactor pump halted because of the loss of power supply, leading to a temporary pressure drop. Then, the decay heat caused the pressure to moderately increase, resulting in a pressure of around 8 MPa. At 6:06 on March 12, pressure reduction was performed on the RPV, but the pressure continued to increase moderately because of the decay heat.
...
On March 13, water was successfully injected into the reactor using the condensate transfer pump at Unit 5, which received power from the emergency DG at Unit 6. Accordingly, after 5:00 on March 14, the reactor pressure and the water level were controlled by reducing pressure with the SRV and repeatedly refilling the reactor with water from the condensate storage tank through the condensate transfer pump in parallel.
by xxx 6/8/2011 9:24:32 PM

BENEFITS OF MOX
MOX fuel is an attractive energy source for several reasons.
• Recycling used nuclear fuel extracts substantial additional energy from uranium resources. This helps
extend uranium reserves.
• Utilizing MOX fuel means that useful energy-producing material does not go to waste.
• MOX fuel is energy efficient. One pellet of MOX fuel, approximately one centimetre in length and
weighing about six grammes, generates the energy equivalent of one tonne of coal.
• Since nuclear power stations do not emit carbon dioxide and other harmful substances associated with
fossil fuels, MOX contributes to promoting clean air.
• Utilizing MOX fuel reduces the amount of radioactive material that would otherwise need disposal,
reducing demands on waste storage facilities.
• By using plutonium, it reduces concerns about the proliferation of nuclear materials.
With its inherent stability, portability and high energy content, MOX fuel is an attractive source of
electricity that is set to expand in use in the twenty-first century.
by cat 6/8/2011 9:24:58 PM

Info. Thank you AREVA and ORC
by cat 6/8/2011 9:25:52 PM

I would still like to Know if it was all loded into#3
by cat 6/8/2011 9:26:50 PM

@elainekirk Hmm. I need to go back and look at those digital globe files again. It looks like the right wall corner is bowed. The wall panels and parts of the end wall are pushed out so it could be giving the illusion the corner is bowed. Will need to look at the big version of that image to tell for sure.
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:27:17 PM

"MOX contributes to promoting clean air."
by Edano 6/8/2011 9:27:50 PM

@xxx have you the link for that info it needs saving and I think if we add the link to it it automatically saves , excellent find ! they were playing with #5 or are creating a cover story I wonder which...
by elainekirk 6/8/2011 9:30:13 PM

@cat It was all loaded into #3 per TEPCO and NISA/METI documentation of the install. They put 32 assemblies into the core. One of the big myths pushed by Areva about using MOX was that it burned up the plutonium. It only consumes more plutonium that exists/is produced if they run a large percentage of the reactor loaded with MOX and do so at ranges outside of the permitted safe ranges. At the percentage and ranges allowed for safety it ends up actually producing MORE plutonium rather than consuming it.
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:30:47 PM

@Edano How Orwellian! :-)
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:31:02 PM

@Edano Mmm. I couldn't figure that either.
by cat 6/8/2011 9:31:06 PM

@Pedro Jesus : correction: Germany decomissions all nuclear plants until 2022.
by Edano edited by Edano 6/8/2011 9:32:06 PM

@lillymunster. Was that the same stuff yhey had stored since 1999?
by cat 6/8/2011 9:32:21 PM

how much mox do france use?
by elainekirk 6/8/2011 9:32:21 PM

@elainekirk www.kantei.go.jp
by xxx 6/8/2011 9:32:54 PM

@Edano Last news I saw was 2022. How are they replacing the energy in such a short term?
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:33:18 PM

@cat yup the same stuff that came in the consignment that the other recieving plant sent back as it was iffy
by elainekirk 6/8/2011 9:33:32 PM

@Pedro Jesus : yes, 2022, sorry, 2012 is tomorrow ;), you said "in the next decades".
by Edano 6/8/2011 9:35:05 PM

@elainekirk Today MOX is widely used in Europe and in Japan. Currently about 40 reactors in Europe (Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and France) are licensed to use MOX, and over 30 are doing so. In Japan about ten reactors are licensed to use it and several do so. These reactors generally use MOX fuel as about one third of their core, but some will accept up to 50% MOX assemblies. France aims to have all its 900 MWe series of reactors running with at least one third MOX. Japan also plans to use MOX in one third of its reactors in the near future and expects to start up a 1383 MWe (gross) reactor with a complete fuel
www.world-nuclear.org

BTW, Greenpeace has some very good info on who runs MOX, where it is, ships etc. and data on safety. But they fail at keeping their info somewhere easy to look up.
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:35:08 PM

@Edano Besides, decommissioning a NPP takes from 8 to 11 years. It must be 2022. Where did you see the 2012 number?
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:35:12 PM

@elainekirk . none left in SFPs then?
by cat 6/8/2011 9:35:19 PM

Good points, @Pedro_Jesus and @Elainekirk.
That is why I believe boards like our georgegibbscribble really serve a very strategic role in illuminating issues, and facilitating/gestating outcomes/resolution.

>By Pedro Jesus: The problem with that is all they can do for the next several years
>is make estimates and simulations. We won't know anything for sure until they open
>the RPV which cannot be done before 5 years, maybe more, from now. Most of us will
>have forgotten the issue by the time we finally find out what really happened inside
>those RPVs. They can't really admit what they don't know. They can only admit that
>the possibility is more or less likely with the information they have.

>By @elainekirk: they won't until it is common knowledge due to public liability issues
>they have obviously invested more in legal & PR than they have in worker welfare
by ALBLEE 6/8/2011 9:35:37 PM

Why don't we use Thorium?
by cat 6/8/2011 9:36:07 PM

@ALBLEE And keeping a record for future reference.
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:36:32 PM

@Pedro Jesus That is important.
by cat 6/8/2011 9:37:13 PM

@cat I cannot answer that question my personal belief is that there were other mox and plutonium stocks at fuku
by elainekirk 6/8/2011 9:37:21 PM

@elainekirk mine too
by cat 6/8/2011 9:38:26 PM

@elainekirk There were or there are?
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:39:53 PM

Right, @Pedro_Jesus, @cat.
Here's hoping our scribble continues to encourage the surfacing of vital/critical data or information, especially from the board lurkers (they don't have to post directly, I'm sure they'll find a safe or secure way to get their info into our platform), now that the other M word -- melt-through -- seems to be out of the bag now.
by ALBLEE 6/8/2011 9:40:19 PM

@ALBLEE actually we're thinking about corium in groundwater since two weeks. ;)
by Edano 6/8/2011 9:41:44 PM

I do remember that, @edano. Folk in Japan are getting ready to start another workday as I write this. Here's hoping this day brings good stuff by way of actionable tips or info. :o)
by ALBLEE 6/8/2011 9:42:50 PM

@ALBLEE : measure radiation in your surrounding and report it !
by Edano 6/8/2011 9:43:53 PM

@ALBLEE Sometime ago I had an idea of calculating how much water has been pumped into the coaling systems and comparing the figure with the amount of water reported seen in each basement. Then we could have an idea of how much water is missing and estimate if it could all have evaporated or if it is seeping through the base mat, which could indicate a complete melt-through depending on how much water is missing. I don't know if this is possible, at least with a certain degree of accuracy.
by Pedro Jesus 6/8/2011 9:45:32 PM

@cat I did some reading on Thorium after someone brought it up a few months ago. It has some drawbacks and some of the test reactors didn't operate as hoped. The wiki on Thorium had some good info. en.wikipedia.org The german reactor I mentioned en.wikipedia.org
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:46:57 PM

we have two decommissioned thorium reactors in germany. they did not work. until today they are still looking for the fuel balls. :)
by Edano edited by Edano 6/8/2011 9:48:20 PM

That's right, thanks @edano and @Pedro_Jesus. I agree completely.
As I am sure our board's reach has slowly expanded peripherally, there should be infoneurons extending out to touch sources within TEPCO or the orgs/agencies that have a critical/direct bearing on Fukushima/Daiichi/Daini. If there is a time for constructive (even if negative) info (or efforts to process data) to emerge, it is now. No, make that yesterday.
by ALBLEE 6/8/2011 9:48:34 PM

As far as more MOX at Fuku. So far we can't find official record for any being shipped there. That doesn't mean that there wasn't another shipment and we just have not found records yet. There was also a load that went to TEPCO's other plant at Kashiwazaki but TEPCO can't burn it there due to a local vote banning it. So one would think they might take that MOX and move it to the NPP where they can burn MOX. But what is unknown is did they move it? Do they have to get any official approval to move over land within Japan or can they just do it? So no, no official record of them moving mox between plants but it certainly is not outside of the realm of possibilities
by lillymunster 6/8/2011 9:51:15 PM