Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1790

@lillymunster , vlc lets you take screen snapshots. Elmedia player lets you do this in their pro version (pro=pay).
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:40:07 PM

hi Peter, good seeing you
by dean 6/29/2011 8:41:18 PM

@dean , what could produce black smoke in unit 3. Could it be graphite in the safety rods?
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:41:27 PM

I keep thinking some sort of petroleum product like hydraulic fluids etc @ Peter,

by dean 6/29/2011 8:42:54 PM

Hello, got a little further on the turbine-driven pumps. The do have a history on bad performance: docs.google.com . Also found out that parts of the RCIC are not seismically hardened.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:43:34 PM

@dean the flakes of cladding are assumed to be off the mox rods. This is using google translate. I am going to recompile the PDF with images of the actual report and will grab certain sections that are more critical (like the flakes portion) and see if we can get a direct translation from one of the people who volunteer to translate for us.
by lillymunster 6/29/2011 8:44:20 PM

@dean , but why would that only happen in this one? Unit 2 for example does not show any grime.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:44:30 PM

good question on that one Peter,,, the control rods are boron carbide or hafnium
by dean 6/29/2011 8:47:23 PM

@wrshpr, perhaps it is Radon. More bubbles out of the ground when it is hot.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:49:19 PM

@dean , smoss found out that the control rods are made of hafnium. Strange stuff. Hafnium oxide has got the highest melting point known.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 8:51:22 PM

good @ lilly.. I would expect those MOX elements to come pristine condition with gloved hands handling them after having been thoroughly inspected... flakes of things or irregular fuel capsules is bad
by dean 6/29/2011 8:51:34 PM

one element is better @ Peter and the nuc boys are looking at using Beryllium.. instead of the B4C
by dean 6/29/2011 8:52:15 PM

one thing about hafnium is it has a higher absorption rate affect at elevated or accident conditions.
by dean 6/29/2011 8:53:01 PM

Hf also has a very nigh neutron absorption cross section so it's a beautiful absorber to shut down reactors
by dean 6/29/2011 8:53:51 PM

@ Peter I was trying to get the group here to brainstorm ,, what would burn with black smoke in that facility,, and intermittently at that
by dean 6/29/2011 8:54:36 PM

@dean oil, electrical insulation, something with lots of carbon?
by lillymunster 6/29/2011 8:56:09 PM

Smoke plumes continue to rise from parts of Japan's devastated Fukushima I nuclear plant. On Wednesday, black smoke suddenly billowed up from reactor No. 3, causing workers to evacuate the area and stopping work at the plant for a few hours. Crews later returned, and officials said radiation levels did not spike during the incident.
by dean 6/29/2011 8:57:23 PM

that's what I think lilly
by dean 6/29/2011 8:57:36 PM

@dean 10 years in the sfp, noted irregularities and they put them in the reactor and ran them. There are also questions about the production quality since the French company that made these used identical standards to the British company that made flawed rods for another reactor.
by lillymunster 6/29/2011 8:57:37 PM

There is a history here of operational status of japans nuclear facilities 2005 www.jnes.go.jp
OH here is 2009 www.jnes.go.jp
OOOH and here is 2010 www.jnes.go.jp
by Elaine Kirk 6/29/2011 8:57:39 PM

those books do log mox shipments etc I just found them so havent had a real look yet
by Elaine Kirk 6/29/2011 8:59:30 PM

Who knows what fires that will cause in all that damaged machinery when the juice hits fried circuits.

That's likely the cause of the black and grey smoke
by dean 6/29/2011 9:00:45 PM

that was an exerpt
by dean 6/29/2011 9:00:53 PM

@Peter...thnks...that is possible, i suppose, though if that were the explanation for the rather incredible (to my untrained eyes at least) spikes, I would think that it would occur somewhere more like Lancaster County/Amish County Pennsylvania, as the limestone which makes the soil so fertile also apparently contributes to radon release somehow. Though both areas are highly agricultural, and maybe it is just that the limestone in lancaster contributes to high levels in the basements, whereas the tilling of the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia contributes to radon in the atmosphere. eetd.lbl.gov
by wrshpr 6/29/2011 9:03:14 PM

if there were fuel oil lines passing through the area from tanks or piping and it developed a leak and spread the fuel oil out then it ignited that could cause black type smoke

by dean 6/29/2011 9:03:31 PM

@dean an oil leak?
by Elaine Kirk 6/29/2011 9:04:07 PM

yes elaine.. engine fuel oil... refined differently that diesel fuel
by dean 6/29/2011 9:04:47 PM

or leaks from equipment with oil coolling.. diesels have oil coolers and heat exchangers to remove the heat from the hot oil.. etc..
by dean 6/29/2011 9:05:37 PM

and the gunk stuff oh what is it called?? we used it on the boats to provide a watertight seal oon the prop shaft
by Elaine Kirk 6/29/2011 9:08:01 PM

don't make me google elaine. .ha ha
by dean 6/29/2011 9:12:03 PM

@dean oh goodness I forget the name used to dollop it into a brass tube with screw plunger and turn the screw till tight after shutting the engine down those who didnt were sunk lol
by Elaine Kirk 6/29/2011 9:14:23 PM

@ Peter.. some of the older shielded concrete used lead or graphite in it alot...
by dean 6/29/2011 9:15:40 PM

@wrshpr , we live in Charlottesville, VA, and have a distinct Radon problem in the area. We have had temps in the nineties on some days in the past two weeks.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 9:15:49 PM

Twitter releases fascinating data from burst of #Japan Earthquake tweets wapo.st
by Veenie 6/29/2011 9:16:43 PM

@dean , It must be a material that is in abundance where the corium smolders.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 9:17:27 PM

A quick search produced this: Concrete is fully oxidized. It will never burn, but its mechanical strength is lost above a few hundred degrees F, usually shortly after all the water is baked out of it.

Usually failure of concrete structures due to heating, is caused by the differences in "coefficient of thermal expansion" of concrete and its reinforcing rebar. The rebar shatters the concrete, rips itself loose from intimate contact, and then the whole structure collapses.

Black smoke means particulates are stuck to large globules of unburned fuel, and white smoke is from low-temperature combustion.
White is USUALLY a signal that water vapor is present. Darker smoke is USUALLY a signal that organics with no water is present. You can have everything in between also. There are no hard and fast rules. For example, the leaves versus clothing. Dry leaves and cotton fabric would look the same. Wet leaves versus polyester fabric would give what you described. On the white smoke not being a fire. It depends. Small fire with water being sprayed on it would be white. Also, acid fires can be white for another example. A boiler can give both. Black if the boiler fire is not optimal. White or almost no color if balanced (close to 100% combustion). Steam trap releases on the boiler - white.
by M.I.A. 6/29/2011 9:18:04 PM

@Elaine Kirk , it may have been graphite grease.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 9:18:05 PM

Veenie nice fine.. I think that was our Nancy and Elaine tweeting..
by dean 6/29/2011 9:19:00 PM

ty M.I.A. good info
by dean 6/29/2011 9:21:01 PM

@M.I.A. , right: incomplete combustion = black. There cannot be much oxygen where it smolders.
by Peter Melzer 6/29/2011 9:21:15 PM

I wondered for awhile what color the corium and subsurface below the concrete would look like
by dean 6/29/2011 9:22:09 PM

@Elaine Kirk I ran through the 2010 book. I found references to MOX inspections at units preparing to start using MOX. Units already using MOX or ones like Kashiwazaki where they had fuel but could not use it, no mention. It did detail in the report of a new MOX start up reactor that storing new mox fuel in the spent fuel pool is the expected procedure. So that does seem to be a national standard.
by lillymunster 6/29/2011 9:22:19 PM