IMHO they went checking either to attempt the damage caused by Sundays 6.3? quake or because a worker alarmed or maybe a worker alarmed when checking for quake damage but I think they would have known if it were there before sunday they took gamma shots on sunday monday to look for damage and the gamma shot has ben published for that area
by elainekirk 8/4/2011 3:35:26 PM
I can see where that ... and i almost guarantee other hot spots would be missed on their surveys,, particularly after what we've seen up to this point on how they do business there
by dean 8/4/2011 3:35:33 PM
The values indicate milliSv/h. RBeaner, what is the evidence that what they found this week is left over from March?
by Peter Melzer 8/4/2011 3:35:41 PM
@Peter Melzer Rad levels decrease very rapidly from the physical source. I think way to much emphasis is being placed on this hot source being found. Obvious emphasis should be placed on the origional source (why is it there?), but not on the time frame that it was identified.
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:35:59 PM
@Pedro Jesus I agree the suits do 0 for gamma attenuation, but distance is marvelous, double the distance (from a hot spot) and quarter the dose.
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:37:59 PM
@RBeaner Exactly, and that holds for any kind of radiation. A simple physical implication that has been eluding my tired mind in the last couple of days. About that 10 Sv/h reading, from what I understood, TEPCO attributes that to remains from the venting procedure they've done in the early days of the crisis before the explosions. According to TEPCO that particular piping system hasn't been used ever since. I supposed whatever radioactive particulates adhered to that piping system must have half-lives in the range of 30 years upwards. Could be Caesium, Strontium or other beta emitters.
by Pedro Jesus 8/4/2011 3:41:39 PM
@Peter Melzer @elainekirk Please understand, movement of a survey meter by 1 foot, can increase dose rate 10 fold. The worker being 2 ft away instead of 1 ft away can reduce radiation to (TO) 1 quarter the origional. Distance is a HUGE factor in personnel exposure.
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:42:18 PM
@Peter Melzer All I saw was an article saying earlier, then i posted "@Peter Melzer 2 reasons for not finding hot spots earlier. 1. General area surveys are just that, walkways and travel routes vs. component specific surveys. 2. The article said they got indications of high rad while removing debris with remote vehicles in this area. The hot spot was most likely inaccessable earlier. Remember, dependent on the physical size of the high rad spot/area, the rad will drop off very quickly (~double the distance and quarter the dose). by RBeaner 8/4/2011 6:47:51 AM 2:47 AM"
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:46:42 PM
Tepco knew that this was a hot area all along. One of the worker's tweets published here told us that he developed the habit of running when he needs to pass the stacks. The question is why is this information divulged now?
by Peter Melzer 8/4/2011 3:47:06 PM
@Peter Melzer As an informed individual, disregarding the tweets, what do you think the rad levels were 10 ft from this elbow and how did they compare with the elevated levels on this walkway/road area?
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:49:37 PM
@ Peter.. you hit the nail on the head... from what I've seen, the workers involved in a job I saw on a video would run like mad, do the work and run like mad behind some COLUMN in the facility,,, as opposed to the workers there at fukushima.. they knew of the hot spots on the ground found etc and potential areas of higher rad levels and I bet they ran past them and still do to this day
by dean 8/4/2011 3:50:23 PM
@dean Have you ever.... EVER worked at a facility where the workers were decieved about the rad levels they would encounter? There is some little question about the effects of low level, but have you ever seen a worker deceived?
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 3:53:35 PM
not intentionally @ RBeaner
by dean 8/4/2011 3:54:19 PM
@RBeaner , last Monday I figured at 3 meter distance it should be 1 Sv/h, but I forgot to factor in 4pi, so hypothetically 100 milliSv/h for gamma. The job took an exposure of 4milliSv, if I recall correctly, so that leaves a bit more than 2 minutes to accomplish the job.
by Peter Melzer 8/4/2011 3:57:36 PM
@dean Mistakes can be made, but those kinds are quickly corrected. The average population might have dosimetry that can be read once a month, but the workers are getting read every day or week dependent on expected exposure. I have trained thousands of workers, and I hope decieved none. You tell them the real deal, and if they don't like it, there are 5 behind him. Give them the truth and they can make an appropriate assessment.\
by RBeaner 8/4/2011 4:00:03 PM
@RBeaner Mistakes like this one posted here recently: www.nrc.gov I particularly draw your attention to the 3rd and 4th paragraph.
by M.I.A. 8/4/2011 4:03:49 PM
RBeaner perhaps there is one more factor that supercedes all the things they may train those workers on .. their lively hood depends on money and they are working there to do just that,,,, "if" they get higher dose they go home... that tells me the error of the human side is to shield your badges and do anything to stay employed... it's a whole different story. I am convinced that workers there are minimally trained for their work.
by dean 8/4/2011 4:03:56 PM
@dean we know many workers there are minimally trained and some were given no real training at all before being sent into the plant. Many told the media and labor officials these things. It sounds like the labor ministry did finally put some rules in place to make sure all workers even day workers had some sort of rudimentary training before they were in the plant.
by lillymunster 8/4/2011 4:06:01 PM
@dean But that depends if they are TEPCO employees or subcontractors. TEPCO workers that go over the limit have to wait until the next year to come back to work and they are still getting paid to sit at home. With subcontractors it can depend on the type of contract they have. So it can actually go both ways. Some workers could actually expose themselves to more radiation than necessary to make sure they go home earlier. I don't think that would be the issue there. Those guys put there lives at risk. We owe them the benefit of the doubt on that issue.
by Pedro Jesus 8/4/2011 4:09:49 PM
@lilly, I just imagine how those workers feel... being bused in not knowing the details of information that could be critical to their job etc. it must present a fear and anxiety level as we have not felt... I"m glad you have links to some workers
by dean 8/4/2011 4:09:58 PM
good point Pedro... very good point... some would leave their badges out somewhere ,,, black market badges they could leave... well I'm thinking outloud.. they probably wouldn't do that
by dean 8/4/2011 4:10:59 PM
agree on the benefit of the doubt pedro
by dean 8/4/2011 4:11:36 PM
@dean =)
by Pedro Jesus 8/4/2011 4:11:56 PM
@dean Do you suppose they get on the bus in reply to one of those "Help the recovery in Fukushima for $600/day" adds, and they're on the bus, and suddenly they see the all-to-well-known Daiichi stacks on the horizon. Wonder what that must feel like, though they'd have to have figured it out anyway, right?
@dean By the way, do we know what kind of badges they use there? I've seen some on a recent website that I came across that have a little ship that registers all the readings and that information can then be uploaded to a computer. Do they have these kind of badges?
by Pedro Jesus 8/4/2011 4:13:30 PM
I kind of look at it the way I felt when I was bused to BOOT CAMP prior to going to Vietnam... whewwwww
by dean 8/4/2011 4:13:52 PM
not ship, chip
by Pedro Jesus 8/4/2011 4:14:01 PM
@Pedro Jesus they have a dosimeter type box with a digital reading. Let me go grab a picture
by lillymunster 8/4/2011 4:14:14 PM
I would think they would be state of the art ones.... with the chips
by dean 8/4/2011 4:14:36 PM
RBeaner.. what kind do you think they have?
by dean 8/4/2011 4:15:01 PM
there are many RAD CONTROL system brands out there on the market
news.cnet.com everyone is getting into the picture.. check this orb bot out that swims in pipes
by dean 8/4/2011 4:25:10 PM
robot cleaning up the floors... notice the valve labels swinging in the breeze
by dean 8/4/2011 4:27:51 PM
Auto & Appliance makers focus on batteries for homes. www.asahi.com
by lillymunster 8/4/2011 4:35:37 PM
Kan on: “The next era”: The participation of ‘the people’ will decide our future course: kansblog.kantei.go.jp
by es 8/4/2011 4:42:21 PM
time for lunch good friends... be back later..
by dean 8/4/2011 4:54:49 PM
TEPCO making progress on water treatment. IT doesn't say if the new treatment system is part of that or if the improvement is all the Areva system. ajw.asahi.com