Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2369

if they would directly cool the torus, they would have mentioned it somewhere.
by Edano 9/19/2011 5:29:11 PM

found the water levels doc www.nisa.meti.go.jp
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 5:39:42 PM

Largest antinuclear rally held in Tokyo since Fukushima crisis

TOKYO, Sept. 19, Kyodo

Tens of thousands of people took to the streets in downtown Tokyo on Monday to call for the shutdown of all nuclear power plants in Japan, in the largest protest rally in the country since the Fukushima Daiichi plant catastrophe.

Nobel Prize-winning novelist Kenzaburo Oe, journalist Satoshi Kamata and actor Taro Yamamoto were among the speakers to address the crowd, which organizers put at 60,000 people. Tokyo police estimated the crowd at half that size, or 30,000 people.

''We need to let leaders of major parties and the Japan Business Federation know our intention to resist'' nuclear power generation, Oe, a leading organizer of the event, told the gathering at Tokyo's Meiji Park. english.kyodonews.jp
by Edano 9/19/2011 5:39:53 PM

english.kyodonews.jp a nice photo
by Edano via English.kyodonews.jp 9/19/2011 5:41:05 PM

6/8 - 24/8 www.nisa.meti.go.jp
18/8-6/9 www.mofa.go.jp
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 5:42:17 PM

In aug there was 4 meters of water in unit 1 reactor basement. I am assuming that would be the supression chamber level of the building.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 5:48:28 PM

Regarding the Injection of Nitrogen into the Primary Containment Vessel (PCV) at
Unit 3 of Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station, Tokyo Electric Power Co. Inc.

July 14, 2011
Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency
www.nisa.meti.go.jp
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 5:49:50 PM

Hi@all! This site has Waterlevels. Maybe you can use it. atmc.jp (these are core levels)
by Liz edited by Edano 9/19/2011 5:50:33 PM

They use OP (below grade) rather than depth of water. Quick glance, the 4900 range readings would be supression chamber near the top. Will do some actual calculations after I eat.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 5:51:00 PM

how do those level for august match with this?
The accumulated water in the basement of the turbine building of Unit 3
was transferred to the radioactive waste treatment facilities (from 16:15,
August 23 to 09:46, August 30).
The accumulated water in the basement of the turbine building of Unit 3
was transferred to the building of miscellaneous solid waste volume
reduction facilities (from 09:54, August 30).
Hydrazine (about 2 m3) was injected into the spent fuel pool of Unit 3 via
the Alternative Cooling System for the spent fuel pool (from 11:05 to 13:00,
August 30). docs.google.com
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 5:52:04 PM

The water injection rate via the feedwater line was adjusted from 7.0m3/h to
5.0m3/h at Unit 3 (at 14:46, September 7).
The accumulated water in the basement of the turbine building of Unit 3
was transferred to the building of the miscellaneous solid waste volume
reduction facilities (from 09:54, August 30 to 09:11, September 8).
The accumulated water in the basement of the turbine building of Unit 3
was transferred to the radioactive waste treatment facilities (from 09:30,
September 8). docs.google.com
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 5:55:45 PM

If these water levels are right the water level would be below the bottom of the drywell
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 5:58:51 PM

@Edano those that I posted are all over gov depts but different day sets like 16th to 24th where another will be 18th to 30th really strange
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 6:01:35 PM

I am using Elaine's link. Those building levels use OP - measurement vs IIRC sea level as 0 and show above and below grade. Working on an illustration.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:04:25 PM

Water level max - by reactor basement readings
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:14:00 PM

High and Low readings for 1-3 reactor basement water levels
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:14:42 PM

that is just the two weeks isnt it /i will try find more
found this
A flexible hose was installed at Unit 3 in order to inject water into the
reactor core via the core spray system (from 11:30 to 13:00, August 31).
docs.google.com
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 6:17:35 PM

What could be different, the water level in the containment bulb could actually be holding water, so it would have its own water level if leaks out of containment are small enough to allow water to build up in containment. As far as I know we don't have a containment water level reading, only RPV? If containment and building basement water levels are equalized, meaning enough water is flowing out to not build up in containment, the water level would mean there is no water staying in containment. These readings at least tell us there is water in the suppression chamber level.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:18:08 PM

Regarding the Injection of Nitrogen into the Primary Containment Vessel (PCV) at
Unit 3 of Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station, Tokyo Electric Power Co. Inc. july docs.google.com
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 6:20:42 PM

a.
Basic analysis: “Almost no fuel left in the core of
every unit” case

This case is thought to mirror actual conditions. docs.google.com
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 6:23:08 PM

Check out Fig. V-2-1 composed of three panels (1/3, 2/3 and 3/3) in this doc Elaine found: www.meti.go.jp . The Fig. shows three different scenarios for remediation and fuel/corium exploration and recovery. It is not clear which of the panels pertains to what reactor. But because 3/3 shows a tent, I suppose the sequence is from unit 3 to unit 1. Each recovery proposal shows that the RPVs and PCVs will eventually be filled with water to different levels. Hence, Tepco seems to know where fuel and/or corium in each reactor is. Back later.
by Peter 9/19/2011 6:48:06 PM

Did some quick drawings. Took the illustrations from the video Ian posted this morning that showed corium flow based on the rooms that it hit. This matches one of the graphics I have from the weekend that documented what rooms the corium made it to. The elevation drawing for Chernobyl showed a building width so I used that to get a rough measurement for the core area and imposed that on drawings to get a very rough idea of how far corium flowed.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:52:57 PM

Corium flow. each line is 17.5meters
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:53:21 PM

Corium flow Chernobyl lines are 17.5meters
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:54:24 PM

that is really clever !!
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 6:55:18 PM

Some very ballpark numbers on Chernobyl. The flow that made a right turn traveled about 30 meters before again melting through to the floor below. The fuel directly under the core made it about 15 meters.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:55:37 PM

Grabbing coffee and will try to relate these to fuku drawings.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 6:56:22 PM

@lillymunster being non techi I am amazed how you can visualise these things great work
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 7:03:21 PM

@Edano how long before the groundwater makes it to the ocean?
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 7:04:33 PM

Did an overlay on the fuku elevation. 15meters is the blue mark on that vs. 17.5 that was used as a reference point on Chernobyl. If the fuel at Chernobyl ran 30meters. The 15meter mark on Fuku is rather enlightening. But as Pedro mentioned, we have lots of missing information and watering could have played a role in much of this behavior.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 7:21:33 PM

Fuku - lateral measurement 15 meters is the blue line
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 7:22:01 PM

@lillymunster , the reconstruction is wonderful, illustrating a plausible possibility. I suppose nobody, robos included, has been near a torus yet.
As to the steam rising from the low building Elaine showed earlier, I saw on other pics that tepco ripped off walls and removed sidings from buildings to improve ventilation. This looks like one of those jobs to me.
by Peter 9/19/2011 7:38:38 PM

@Peter thanks. So far they have not taken robots below the ground floor level as far as I know. They showed the stairwells going down to the basement to be partially submersed with water so unless they sent an underwater bot of some sort I don't think there has been any excursion. I think the stairwell photos of 1 and 3 showing water were both taken by robots so radiation levels could still be high.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 7:56:23 PM

Reading this document Elaine posted about the nitrogen injection. They go on to talk about tsunami counter measures. That made me think about all the new equipment brought in. Recirculation systems and water treatment systems are almost all on semi truck trailers. That is good because they are modular and can be swapped out. If they were to get another tsunami it would rip everything out. I suppose that is the price for dealing with such a complicated situation. A good reminder how fragile this whole thing is.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 8:00:47 PM

@Peter @lillymunster when you think they used an underwater cam in #4 sfp so they could equally use one in the basements and in all probability have done so
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 8:05:15 PM

@elainekirk The challenge is that with a fuel pool they slapped it on the end of the crane and dunked it in. With the suppression chamber they would need to get it in the building over to the stairs and then down into the water. so they would almost need something amphibious. I don't know what the basements are like if one could get caught up and lost. Sounds like it would be an idea test for an underwater bot
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 8:10:50 PM

@lillymunster I recall one of the workers saying that when they got to it it was going to be a case of run in slap some cement or like in then run out next one in etc etc (that being the holed one #2)
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 8:26:10 PM

@elainekirk TEPCO did mention their intent to cement up the basements of the reactors. At the same time they claim they don't know where the fuel is or where the water is leaking out of. I don't know how they could actually do this.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 8:28:54 PM

t may be why they are saying they dont know where the fuel is . The easiest thing for tepco would be to have the corium sink down

A worker talked of the containments being dismantled once the covers were on (he didnt know how they planned to do it if those covers are airtight and assumed they wont be)

So it isnt too far fetched to imagine them planning on just pouring concrete in clearing the above ground and saying oh looky ...magic
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 8:43:01 PM

the sfp's are what tepco see as a problem as they theoretically have to empty them but looking at unit 1 I dunno how they planto do that
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 8:44:59 PM

@elainekirk Unit 1 if they clear the work deck off they could potentially remove into canisters and lower down the refueling elevator hole. But they have no functional cranes inside and the tent is almost done so the tents seem premature from that standpoint. They need a very heavy duty crane to handle those fuel casks. Now with unit 3 and 4? They don't even have those structures to help move fuel. I really think much of TEPCO's work is done right now to get the govt. off their back hoping it will be someone else's problem later on. I would love to know how much of this is the plant manager's & engineers plan and how much is the corporate office's plan.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 8:52:25 PM

@lillymunster it is all money management now I think the people going in for goods is the first step on a slippery road when it comes to tepco having responsibility forced on them some of the compo was for the fear distress etc and there aint much of that in legal eyes if people are going in for goods wearing only paper masks and bringing carpets out with them. The people have no choice in my eyes they have been kept without homes and money for 6months they are desperate but would the law see it that way
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 8:58:51 PM

@elainekirk In typical legal fashion anyone taking on TEPCO will have their every move used against them. There is a govt. arbitration system set up if people want to dispute TEPCO rejecting their claim. I don't know if it will be an analysis of the application or an actual court case style arbitration. I would imagine those charged with arbitrating would grow tired of TEPCO smearing evacuees pretty fast.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 9:10:06 PM

@lillymunster I lost my optimism somewhere maybe I left it by the kettle ....
by elainekirk 9/19/2011 9:13:21 PM

60,000 people marching on Tokyo gives me hope that they will not put up with large amounts of this nonsense in the future.
by lillymunster 9/19/2011 9:20:43 PM