Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2396

@artnuke strnge isnt it, yesterday they knew that nothing could travel faster than light, any scientist (or politician) would have sworn to that
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 9:33:50 PM

74.86.200.109 is where the skeptic thread was from. I think Rod Adams is one of the more prolific pro-nukers who has made some pretty lame defences of the BWR failures at fukushima.
by artnuke 9/23/2011 9:34:05 PM

BWR reactor pedestal and door opening
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 9:35:16 PM

@lillymunster so the pcv sits on a pedestal? how high is the pedestal and does it create a sealed area below the pcv so if fuel melted through ... stop me now if I am totally off track
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 9:39:50 PM

@elainekirk your on track. The RPV (reactor vessel) sits inside the pedestal that is just a big concrete tube sitting vertical. The pedestal goes pretty far up the sides of the reactor, exactly where depends on the drawing your looking at. The bottom of the pedestal can act as a container for the melted fuel and also water could collect there. One thing they are mentioning is that if the melted fuel is in the bottom of this pedestal it can melt through the door and then the door acts as a funnel opening/path of least resistance. At Peach Bottom that door also sits facing the end of one of the big torus vent pipes that go down into the torus. In that one there is a very obvious path where the melted fuel would go.
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 9:44:30 PM

Link to that study that claims estimates of 1M deaths from Chernobyl. It is an estimate, but it is not backed up by any measurement of actual cases. That's the number cited by Goddard in his BBC rebuttal. It has been reposted on a number of hokey conspiracy theory websites. www.globalresearch.ca
Radiation: The Future Children of Fukushima
by Joe Giambrone
Global Research, May 3, 2011

How many really died from Chernobyl’s meltdown?

The Yablokov/Nesterenko book places the death toll at about one million.

“Thus the overall mortality for the period from April 1986 to the end of 2004 from the Chernobyl catastrophe was estimated at 985,000 additional deaths. This estimate of the number of additional deaths is similar to those of Gofman (1994a) and Bertell (2006). 22“

Three independent studies arrived at similar findings.
8. ,18., 19., 20., 21., 22. Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment, Alexey V. Yablokov, Vassily B. Nesterenko, Alexey V. Nesterenko, 2009,Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, Vol.1181.

Original study:
www.scribd.com
“it is possible to estimate the total death toll”
It is an estimate, it is not based on measurement of actual cases.

quote is from page 228

article also appears on•www.prisonplanet.com/radiation-the-future-children-of-fukushima.html
•counterpunch
•www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1105/S00031/the-future-children-of-fukushima.htm
by artnuke 9/23/2011 9:44:59 PM

@lillymunster wow at last I am getting savvy do we know what fuku pedestals are like?
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 9:50:42 PM

@artnuke it is a debate that without comprehensive data nobody can be 'right'. Although there is a pretence of data gathering at fuku it is not of benefit to those being exposed right now. What id certain is that radiation kills so it stands to reason that non fatal doses are going to cause changes in the body. As for the cesium debate , cesium is quick and easy to measure and it can be taken that amongst the cesium will be other elements that are more debilitating.
I myself would rather look at ways to help, find all the facts on what is happening at the npp site because if info gathering can help stop another fuku then that will mean that there wont be another fallout somewhere
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 9:58:25 PM

In this post-earthquake reevaluation of KK npp, we can even see a diver at work in the suppression pool on page 20: www.jnes.go.jp
by Peter 9/23/2011 10:09:01 PM

@Peter it is so difficult to comprehend the size of those things till you see thm in perspective like that
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 10:18:57 PM

@elainekirk it is very important to establish if the number of deaths from cesium contamination is worse than chernobyl (1M) or none (Khalil) Goddard's biggest shock is the suggestion on the BBC piece that the EVACUATION is the most harmful thing to the people right now. If the most reliable figures are that the expected number of deaths from exposure to cesium contaminated areas for any period longer than a quickie 2 hour visit is ZERO, that's something you might tell the residents other than giving the residents no choice at all. Then leave it to them to figure out if they want to trust Busby, Moret, Prison Planet, Global Research or the government. //myself would rather look at ways to help, find all the facts on what is happening at the npp site because if info gathering can help stop another fuku then that will mean that there wont be another fallout somewhere

2:58 PM
by artnuke 9/23/2011 10:20:40 PM

@artnuke if research had shown that thwere was no risk from the cesium and the pu, strontium, americium and all the other nasties that accompany it then the Japanese government would not have evacuated because it has harmed the economy and no matter what little value they place on people they, like governments everywhere, place high value on the economy. I think a country that has come through having two atomic bombings is best placed to decide whether an evac zone is needed, personally I dont believe they went far enough.
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 10:29:10 PM

@artnuke do you know who goddard is ?
by Edano 9/23/2011 10:33:44 PM

Evacuation zone level radiation = subway car??
Please check my math and humor me.
The average human body has 4400 becquerels from decaying potassium-40, which is a naturally-occurring isotope of potassium.
37,000 bq per square meter is about 9 times the amount of radiation in one person
You can just about fit 9 people into one square meter on the Tokyo subway, maybe more.
The "red zone" that is 1M bq is within 30km. That's as much radiation as is in 227 people. That many people in 1 sq meter would kill anybody, but not from radiation.....
by artnuke 9/23/2011 10:37:00 PM

@Peter that reminds me, need to go retrieve Dean's reactor divers video from this morning!
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 10:38:49 PM

@elainekirk We have a relative idea based on the elevation drawing and comparisons of Fuku details to other Mark 1 units from the same era.
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 10:39:36 PM

@lillymunster wouldnt it be wonderful to find the plans
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 10:40:26 PM

@lillymunster , as to Peach Bottom, the corium will only say, "how convenient!", after it ate through the door and sees the entrance to the swimming pool, suppression pool that is, ;)

by Peter 9/23/2011 10:40:32 PM

@Edano I'm familiar with him from the TWA-800 controversy before 9/11. He was promoting the theory that it was a missle fired from a submarine based on eye-witness testimony before he recanted and said it was a big mistake Based on what I've heard of Ramsi Yousef's bomb making skills, I'm more inclined to believe rumours he was behind that crash. So far I don't see much problem with Goddard's Fukushima analysis, but the fact he posted on lew rockwell is a bit troubling as that is a 9-11 conspiracy site. The whole 9-11 conspiracy thing smells like a disinformation operation in support of the War Against The West being waged by religious/political fundamentalists as the only thing all of the wacky theories have in common is they are anti-Israel and anti-war-against-muslim nations and the same crowd seems to be backing Busby, Moret and Jim Stone. Khalil seems to be cool and ok.
by artnuke 9/23/2011 10:43:18 PM

@Peter Some of the US Mark 1's have the separate steel containment and concrete containment where they do the outer building shell as the hardened concrete containment. The corium would only have to eat through the steel shell to end up all over inside the building. The design at Peach Bottom, how obvious is that flaw and why did nobody catch that?
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 10:43:40 PM

BRB have to go scare people at the corner store.
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 10:44:05 PM

@artnuke i can't stand your crude propaganda.
by Edano 9/23/2011 10:59:32 PM

@Edano well that's my honest assessment of what is and isn't propoganda and what groups have been behind most of it. You do have to look not only at the data, but who came up with it and what their agenda is. The agenda behind Busby and Moret isn't hard to figure out.
by artnuke 9/23/2011 11:07:32 PM

@Edano what do you make of the maths in this doc www.meti.go.jp
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 11:14:16 PM

file this under things they couldn't pay me enough to do. ECCS diver
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:16:29 PM

Corium melt pathdebris falling
from the reactor vessel would first fill the
drywell sumps, then would spill over the
pedestal region floor. As sufficient height is
accumulated over the floor, flow would begin
through the pedestal doorway. Initial spreading
as the flow enters the expedestal region would
be slight, but after contact with the drywell
wall, the flow would separate into two
branches, each flowing along the wall in a
nearly one-dimensional fashion. These two
branches then meet at a position diametrically
opposite to the doorway.
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:20:31 PM

@Edano. This corium flow puts a holding and collection spot right where that sand pocket is below the torus vent pipes
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:23:18 PM

@lillymunster oh no those divers ....
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 11:23:36 PM

@elainekirk this is a very strange elaboration. it calculates external exposure but rules out internal exposure. but when you clean something you stir up particles and inhale them.
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:25:55 PM

@lillymunster can you give me the source ? looks interesting.
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:26:41 PM

Peach Bottom has a containment set up like Fuku:
The Peach Bottom drywell shell is encased in
concrete below the level of the drywell floor.
Above the floor, there is a 5.1 cm (2 in.) air gap
between the outer surface of the shell and the
surrounding concrete.
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:27:12 PM

@Edano, for the diver pic or the corium/containment paper?
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:27:25 PM

@lillymunster the corium :) what is the pedestal doorway ?
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:27:55 PM

@Edano very misleading I thought
by elainekirk 9/23/2011 11:28:47 PM

@elainekirk indeed. it is made to confuse the population, it does not help much. it is surely no scientific assessment, as it tries to seem. the last sentence is too funny: "would be approximately 49 μSv/year, well below 1 mSv/year". indeed, the math is correct.
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:31:11 PM

pbadupws.nrc.gov This is the document Dean found maybe Monday? Just full of all sorts of details we needed on various things. I am taking notes and going to share out notes and synopsis when finally done.

The reactor sits in the concrete tube pedestal and it has a door into the base of it so they can get at the control rod mechanism and RPV bottom. The steel door is a weak spot
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:31:47 PM

concrete pedestal around the RPV
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:32:31 PM

That doesn't show it very well...
by lillymunster 9/23/2011 11:32:46 PM

@lillymunster no...
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:33:34 PM

ok, i assume it's the part below the vessel, surrounded by the support skirt ? and it is a seperate room from the drywell ?
by Edano 9/23/2011 11:34:53 PM