Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 835

@Ralph Unger They were given a 40 year life span because the metal and concrete degrade with age and radiation exposure. We have the same problem in the US, they are re licensing these. They are old and have design flaws. The shroud replacement has never been done before, it has been done on all the older reactors at Fuku. They were in the process of doing so at #4.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 1:07:48 AM

Shortly after melt through, the molten core separates into two phases: an oxide, which is
the denser and contains U02, Zr02, La203, SrO, Sb2O3, 5n02, Nb02, MoO2, and the metal, which floats and contains Fe, Cr, Ni, Mn, Zr, Ag, Ru, Te. (The Te is presumed to have been
associated with the Zircaloy cladding as a telluride, and is therefore carried to the metal
phase.)
As the molten core interacts with the concrete pad beneath the reactor vessel, it releases
gaseous constituents from the concrete (H2O and CO2) and proceeds to melt it. The gas
released from the bottom surface of the melt bubbles through the dense oxide melt and the
molten metal. The solids of the concrete melted at the bottom are presumed to become
incorporated into the dense oxide. The interaction of the melt (primarily the metal) with
the concrete on the sides releases gases which are presumed not to bubble through (and not to
react with) the melt but simply rise along the sides. www.iupac.org
by Bobby1 4/25/2011 1:09:17 AM

Focus on one part that has de-graded, but we cannot pay for a total upgrade. Or meet new safety levels.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:09:38 AM

I nuke power was safe, it would be insurable by private insurance companies.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:13:57 AM

Rolls-Royce is good at refurbishing your aging NPP...

Designed to handle complex reactor refurbishment
Rolls-Royce technology is at the heart of life-extension refurbishment of CANDU reactors, in which highly irradiated fuel channel components are removed and replaced. The Rolls-Royce remote tool carrier enables hundreds of irradiated and non-irradiated reactor components, tools and equipment to be transported and manipulated between the reactor face and other equipment on the reactor vault floor.

This Rolls-Royce design can be mounted within a shielded enclosure that traverses up and down the face of the reactor to gain access to all fuel channel sites. The remote tool carrier removes all the highly irradiated channel components from the reactor and transports them to shielding casks on the vault floor.
www.rolls-royce.com
by Rob in SF 4/25/2011 1:14:12 AM

@Ralph Unger Chubu power had a set of reactors of the same design and age. They opted to shut them down rather than make the upgrades needed to make them earthquake safe. They also did some design changes on newer reactors that solve some of the problems with the old design and earth quake. www.chuden.co.jp Hamoka 1 & 2 are like the old units at fuku www.chuden.co.jp
by Nancy 4/25/2011 1:14:35 AM

"Fact Sheet on Nuclear Insurance and Disaster Relief Funds" The gov, you and me have to pay the price if an accident happens. www.nrc.gov
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:16:08 AM

@Ralph Unger There is a high bar to get an insurance company to take the potential risk of a claim. I found this looking for some other info. Lees Loss Prevention manual. Has a section on reviewing NPP for insurance lee's loss prevention manual
books.google.com

Appendix 20 Nuclear Energy a20/1

A20.3 Nuclear Reactors a20/4
A20.4 Nuclear System Reliability a20/5
A20.5 Nuclear Hazard Assessment
A20.6 Nuclear Pressure Systems
A20.7 Nuclear Reactor Operation
A20.8 Nuclear Emergency Planning
by Nancy 4/25/2011 1:17:08 AM

@Ralph Unger They need to put more at risk of these companies involved. If they shouldered the risk all they way back to the last penny the company has they would take safety more seriously than some do now.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 1:18:24 AM

Just like BP. 75 million liability, vs unlimited real damages. Only the cap make it a bet that anyone would take.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:20:25 AM

@Nancy This was the problem in the recent financial fiascos. No skin in the game...
by Rob in SF 4/25/2011 1:21:17 AM

Your skin,not mine, was the problem.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:21:46 AM

@Rob in SF We are learning how dangerous that is. Who cares if there isn't any consequences.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 1:22:32 AM

1 million little old ladies from Pasadena can lose it all and the big players just get a warning.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:23:12 AM

@Bobby1 That's an excellent report on the effects of corium meeting the concrete in the dry well. Did you notice how much H2 is created ?! This could possibly contribute to the difference in explosion intensities between #1 & #3, if the data on #3 has been a complete fabrication.
by Reed 4/25/2011 1:24:18 AM

I lost your money, not mine , silly man. From Wall street.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:24:27 AM

When I made you a profit, I took most of it, when I made you a loss, I still charged ya for it. I wonder why I am "Winning!"
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:26:00 AM

@Reed Yes. But notice there are two layers, the oxides at the bottom and the molten metal on top. The concrete solids get incorporated into the oxides, which are the real nasty stuff.
by Bobby1 4/25/2011 1:28:19 AM

Concrete solids? In the SPFs?
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:29:07 AM

@Ralph Unger Thermodynamics of flowing corium from the reactors.
by Bobby1 4/25/2011 1:30:18 AM

Does corium flow in water? Lemme check. Or pls gimme an answer.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:31:20 AM

@Bobby1 The delta T's are huge in those reactions...the pressure release would be like Mentos in the Coke bottles for #3 if the corium hit the concrete.
by Reed 4/25/2011 1:32:43 AM

I think it was an out of water reaction. www.osti.gov
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:34:09 AM

Did not Chernobyl do the same thing out of water?
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:35:52 AM

@Ralph Unger @Reed Somebody mentioned molybdenum, there it is. H2O is liberated from concrete if not already there, released as H2 through radiolysis I think.
by Bobby1 4/25/2011 1:37:23 AM

Zirconium is already there and we know it got hot, why look any further?
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:39:05 AM

And inflated bladders sealed the spent fuel pools doors and without power they would deflate and leak.Done deal in my mind.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:41:18 AM

If anyone has the time to review bit of history... allthingsnuclear.org
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:47:17 AM

Dr Daniel Cubiccioti passed away in '93.
by Reed 4/25/2011 1:48:41 AM

From March 15th "If mechanisms to fill the pool at Unit 4 are broken, or if there is a need to repair the pool, it will be difficult to get workers close enough to do this. If spent fuel has been in the pool for a relatively short time, even if the water level is at the top of the fuel rods, the radiation dose to someone at the railing of the pool would give them a lethal dose in well under a minute. This would explain why there have been reports of requests to use helicopters to deliver water to the pools. However, it appears that this is not a practical way of delivering water."
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:49:28 AM

@Ralph Unger I also found something from earlier on that "roadmap" TEPCO put out. They comment that the #4 SFP needs to be propped up. Large parts of the building are gone and the thin stretch of concrete that tied it to the outer structure is likely damaged. The way the SFP is designed and tied into the structure would have gotten me a big fat F in drafting class. How it was ever approved is beyond me. Look at the right side elevation drawing www.houseoffoust.com
by Nancy via Houseoffoust 4/25/2011 1:54:14 AM

@Nancy, the concern about any more earthquakes. Yep.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 1:57:56 AM

Don't know how he gets it so soon, but jorge stolfi's got the readings for 24Apr. www.ic.unicamp.br
by marie rich 4/25/2011 2:13:21 AM

How they are going to get in there are shore it up is beyond me. The area is likely highly radioactive due to the newer fuel and dangerous due to all the rubble and broken structure. It seems unlikely they can get robotic machinery in there to put some sort of pillars in place due to the difficulty getting at that location. It would be extremely dangerous to put people under there to work. Things are likely unstable with piles of rubble and people can only climb over so much. Looking at that radiation map TEPCP put out today it says 2mSv by the crane at #4. Somehow that does not sound right. They have fuel out of a reactor in the SFP and rubble that was hot enough it showed up on heat images weeks after the explosions.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 2:18:26 AM

@marie, is there a logical way to dig through those. I am looking for readings on 3 and 4's sfp mainly
by Nancy 4/25/2011 2:19:43 AM

It's a catch 22,we need to clean it up to fix it, but it needs to be clean before we can fix it.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 2:19:48 AM

@Ralph Unger If they can get the bot units into 4 to see what they are dealing with. They could get an idea what is feasible.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 2:21:47 AM

Yep, and maybe if only bot's can go there, maybe only bots can fix it. No help from that BS.No bot built for this scenario.
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 2:23:24 AM

Did you guys already get the Tepco survey map?
by Maureen Burke 4/25/2011 2:27:30 AM

@Ralph Unger They would only be useful in determining the territory. They can't get any of the remote controlled big equipment into that space in the building. Again, why people were calling TEPCO's roadmap more of a wish list. If another big earthquake starts 4 wobbling it could get ugly.
by Nancy 4/25/2011 2:27:51 AM

@Maureen Burke Hi! www.houseoffoust.com
by Reed via Houseoffoust 4/25/2011 2:29:09 AM

The MEXT SPEED1 page at www.bousai.ne.jp shows Ibaraki "under survey"; I am unable to verify if this was also the case yesterday but it seemed to be OK on the 23rd. Thanks.
by alblee 4/25/2011 2:29:45 AM

Or to consolidate the info. "Hot debris hampers reactor repairs
Radiation map shows hazards lurking around every corner" search.japantimes.co.jp
by Ralph Unger 4/25/2011 2:30:35 AM