Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 867

@Markfm pumping out water wouldn't have done it that fast? Have not heard anything else yet today.
by Nancy 4/27/2011 6:11:41 PM

@radioguy, sorry I hit enter and my comment got sent before it was completed.
by General Armchair 4/27/2011 6:12:04 PM

@Markfm the elusive purge to the basement happened again on its own?
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:12:21 PM

Could be. Giant drop in reading for 24 hours. Scab must have torn off.
Mark sorry didnt see you on the board didnt mean to intrude :)
by Markfm edited by elainekirk 4/27/2011 6:14:40 PM

Ooops, sorry, I keep hitting Enter thinking I can add paragraphs and that sends the comment! I'll try to remember. Anyway, I have been wondering about the vulnerability of reactors and spent fuel pools to air attack. I understand that they design reactors to survive a direct hit by an airlliner, and that the largest and heaviest piece of an airliner is the jet engine. But what about some bad guys buying a private jet and retrofitting it specifically for the purpose? I looked up some figures. The weight of a Rolls Royce Trent 900 jet engine, used on Airbus 380, world's largest commercial jetliner, is just under 14,000 pounds. Meanwhile I see that the Gulfstream G550, while it has a useful load (passengers) of only 6,500 pounds, can carry an awful lot of fuel -- maximum fuel load of 35,000 pounds. So my thought is, what about a terrorist group acquiring a private jet and retrofitting it to carry essentially a lance purposefully designed to penetrate the containment? They leave enough lift to carry a minimum amount of fuel and I think they have a pretty plausible attack method, especially given that they might be able to design the "lance" (presumably carried in the cabin) to better penetrate the concrete reactor shell. I'm not trying to give ideas to anybody (!) but I have been considering this lately. The secret is out about the vulnerability of spent fuel pools, especially the rooftop ones in BWRs. But maybe the reactors themselves aren't safe, either. (Moderator -- I sent this before but not sure it got through -- please don't duplicate if the first one got through!)
by General Armchair 4/27/2011 6:14:41 PM

@General Armchair Not a problem. We've just all been watching the constant false equivalence and mixed measures and red herrings... and that terrorist things keeps being tossed out as such an irrelevant fish. Look at the TUNA.

Shift Enter for a line break.
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:15:14 PM

@radioguy Thanks!

See, I can learn! :)
by General Armchair 4/27/2011 6:16:00 PM

@General Armchair Nuclear power plants are not protected against air strikes. Maybe you don't remember but Israel destroyed one of Iran's uranium enrichment nuclear plants back in the 80's with an air strike and the facilities in question were mostly underground unlike civilian facilities.
by Pedro Jesus 4/27/2011 6:19:14 PM

@hi –in california- I went to www.nrc.gov to see if I could find link to radiation messures in air in USA – I didn’t... (very hard to find link to anywhere..) But I found “calculate your dose”, where the questions tells you that it’s stupid to be afraid of rasiation because it is everywhere – and besides, living near a nuclear plant is the most safe thing you can do!...
8. Wear a plutonium-powered cardiac pacemaker (100 mrem)
9. Have had diagnostic x-rays (e.g., upper and lower gastrointestinal, chest) (40 mrem)**
10. Have had nuclear medical procedures (e.g., thyroid scans) (14 mrem)**
11. Live within 50 miles of a nuclear power plant (pressurized water reactor) (0.0009 mrem)
12. Live within 50 miles of a coal-fired electrical utility plant (0.03 mrem)
- good with no quakes - almost a bit nervous.. but hope it will decrease.
by Mona 4/27/2011 6:19:18 PM

Not that it's a popular sentiment of late, but per Peter's comment a few hours back re: spent fuel and the future of the industry. Isn't Yucca Mountain still the solution?

In 2007, the DOE announced it was seeking to double the size of the Yucca Mountain repository to a capacity of 135000 metric tons. -Wikipedia
by Rob in SF 4/27/2011 6:19:30 PM

@all good evening sorry for the loss of sequence just logged on and cleared the queue
by elainekirk 4/27/2011 6:20:14 PM

@Markfm : but it is the torus radiation that dropped. how can corium have proceeded to torus ?
by Edano 4/27/2011 6:22:04 PM

@elainekirk Hi Elaine
@Markfm That is a large change in 24 hours for #2. What's a scab?
@reed good evening :)
by Reed edited by elainekirk 4/27/2011 6:22:45 PM

I wonder if there will be an uptake in external observed radiation, given the big drop listed for the torus. The stuff had to go somewhere
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:23:20 PM

@Pedro Jesus FWIW, Containment domes in the US are designed to withstand the impact of a jumbo jet, but not necessarily a modern jumbo. Indian Point outside NYC is alleged to have ground to air missiles installed somewhere.
by Rob in SF 4/27/2011 6:24:00 PM

Scab, like on a wound. It's like a chunk of something highly radioactive has moved elsewhere -- a scab ripping.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:24:08 PM

the torus radiation might depend on the water level.
by Edano 4/27/2011 6:26:43 PM

@Pedro Jesus But it would probably knock out their power and that is all that is needed. Just scram and have no power and it's toast.
by Jim Carver 4/27/2011 6:29:02 PM

hello Mona.. welcome to the room, do you need anymore information
by dean 4/27/2011 6:29:28 PM

@Pedro Jesus Oh, sure, we can strike an NPP anywhere in the world from the comforts of Las Vegas.
by Rob in SF 4/27/2011 6:30:56 PM

Kind of weird that they released the same 6:00 set of plant parameters twice. I guess they must have liked those values.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:31:05 PM

@Markfm Had to go somewhere. "TEPCO to remove xx,000 tons of water from R2 sub-basement.' Guess they have more now.
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:31:08 PM

@Jim Carver : there are several scenarios that can lead to a loss of electricity.
by Edano 4/27/2011 6:32:37 PM

And a good deal hotter than before.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:32:53 PM

@Markfm I think that's as good an explanation as any. We're pretty sure R2 has had the Molten Corium Sieve feature installed.
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:33:14 PM

@Rob in SF Good thing terrorists don't have access to stealth bombers. @all I'm off to work now, keep up the good work.
by Pedro Jesus 4/27/2011 6:33:56 PM

Maybe one of those good shakes there cracked the crust.
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:34:53 PM

@Edano Maybe we should start talking about the terrorism aspect. We could tell everybody how to screw one up. Then that would get the attention of the government and they might start doing something about this backup power issue.
by Jim Carver 4/27/2011 6:34:58 PM

@Jim Carver FWIW, I think we should discuss such issues here, the terrorists are up to speed, but the public and bureaucracies are not...
by Rob in SF 4/27/2011 6:35:07 PM

@Rob in SF Talking terror gets you noticed these days. But knowing them, they would just shut us down for "security reasons".
by Jim Carver 4/27/2011 6:36:16 PM

@Jim Carver Good luck with that, this is America! Oh wait, that darned Patriot Act...
by Rob in SF 4/27/2011 6:37:22 PM

I see us spend trillions of dollars on some ill-conceived war on a tactic, then I look at the subsidies given to corporation that are only profitable because they are allowed to write off or ignore the human and environmental destruction they cause.
by radioguy 4/27/2011 6:39:48 PM

@Jim Carver : actually, i was not thinking so much of "terrorists". more like natural events like magnetic field changes. it does not need a tsunami to wreck the plants.
by Edano 4/27/2011 6:39:56 PM

The two JAIF reports in my sticky are both in English. The Earthquake report is a very readable text, summary of events across multiple areas.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:40:04 PM

From Fukushima we know the following (sigh, I WILL learn!):

1) "rooftop" SPFs at BWRs have very little protection. It clearly would not take much to strip off the roof at any BWR in the country. Any airliner could do this.

2) A leak that high in the air is going to empty the pool pretty quickly. Ground level pools, as I believe are installed at PWRs, might contaminate ground water if their linings were damaged, but I don't think they would lose their coolant nearly as quickliy as the pools in BWRs.

3) Design of BWR places SPF right next to reactor. While terrorists might have to choose which to target at a PWR, at a BWR they might get a "two-fer."

(Anyway, being a newcomer here [thanks Nancy!] I didn't want to start discussion on anything verboten but there was a lull so I thought I'd see what people thought.)
by General Armchair 4/27/2011 6:40:25 PM

Dean -- Any thoughts on what would drive the #2 B channel CAMS readings down by 60 Sv/hr across 24 hours? Wonder if they called Roto Rooter to clear a plug of something.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:41:58 PM

Officials says report of radiation at 10 million times normal levels inside Fukushima nuclear plant was inaccurate www.cbsnews.com
by Bobby1 4/27/2011 6:43:50 PM

@Bobby1 : oh yes. of course.
by Edano 4/27/2011 6:44:28 PM

TEPCO estimates 520-ton radioactive water into sea www3.nhk.or.jp
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:45:01 PM

Letter from Fukushima: A Vietnamese-Japanese Police Officer’s Account
Editor’s note: This letter, written by a Vietnamese immigrant working in Fukishima as a policeman to a friend in Vietnam, has been circulating on Facebook among the Vietnamese diaspora. It is an extraordinary testimony to the strength and dignity of the Japanese spirit, and an interesting slice of life near the epicenter of Japan’s current crisis, the Fukushima nuclear power plant. It was translated by NAM editor, Andrew Lam, author of East Eats West: Writing in Two Hemispheres. His first book, Perfume Dreams, Reflections on the Vietnamese DIaspora won a 2006 Pen Award.
"Brother,
How are you and your family? These last few days, everything was in chaos. When I close my eyes, I see dead bodies. When I open my eyes, I also see dead bodies. Each one of us must work 20 hours a day, yet I wish there were 48 hours in the day, so that we could continue helping and rescuing folks. We are without water and electricity, and food rations are near zero. We barely manage to move refugees before there are new orders to move them elsewhere.

I am currently in Fukushima, about 25 kilometers away from the nuclear power plant. I have so much to tell you that if I could write it all down, it would surely turn into a novel about human relationships and behaviors during times of crisis." newamericamedia.org
by Tenzing 4/27/2011 6:45:28 PM

TEPCO unveils plan to process contaminated water www3.nhk.or.jp Hope to start in June. 70,000 tons of water as of now. Oil filter then kitty litter (zeolite), then desalinate, then reuse for cooling. No plan on what to do with it at the end.
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:47:39 PM

Tepco woman took three times radiation limit search.japantimes.co.jp "The woman was found to have suffered more internal than external radiation exposure, with the internal exposure reaching 13.6 millisieverts."
by Markfm 4/27/2011 6:50:02 PM

by e123 4/27/2011 6:50:33 PM

Something interesting I came across a while back was that the amount of Becquerels of radioactivity contained in the 11,500 tons of water they dumped into the ocean several weeks ago was equivalent to the amount contained in something like 10 liters of the water found in basement of #2 turbine building. (There's at least 20,000,000 liters of water there.)

Which means that turbine building water is awfully "hot."
by General Armchair 4/27/2011 6:50:39 PM