Japan Earthquake | Page 923

  • @Edano I cannot understand Japanese, but I watched the video anyways, just to try and gauge the sincerity on the faces of the speakers. As with Kosako and others who have been forced (by law or conscience) to disclose alarming figures, the sincerity is overwhelming. These people know what is going on, and it scares the daylights out of them.
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 2:27:04 PM

  • @fitter Look at it like an aquarium (the sfp). If we just keep adding water to our fish tank and don't do a partial water change the water gets nasty fast even with the filtration system. As you add water back in to make up for evaporation it concentrates the junk in the water. The SFP is leaking but lots is evaporating and they are just topping off so there is likely lots of junk in that water between the rods giving off things, rubble in the pool and junk in the water.
    by Nancy 5/1/2011 2:29:10 PM

  • @Nancy There can't even be any filtration because there isn't any circulation. So even more of a mess...
    by marie rich 5/1/2011 2:34:36 PM

  • Good thing they have fresh water now, or the pool would end up as a pile of salt.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 2:42:43 PM

  • In the video of Ishikawa speaking, the corium discussion seem sto pick up after about the 6:30 mark, and continues past 8:00 -- in case anyone wants to see a lot of gesturing at diagrams with the occasional audible 'Shielding' 'Curie' or 'Corium' and 'Plutonium' amongst the Japanese words.
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 2:46:24 PM

  • @Nancy Ironically, those of us in the saltwater aquarium hobby, top off our tanks with "fresh" water, not salt water. Topping off with "salt" water would kill our fish and corals, because in a tank, the salt content increases with evaporation.
    by Debra Beckham 5/1/2011 2:48:40 PM

  • Salt does not evaporate, Yep.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 2:49:35 PM

  • while tepco pretends everything to be clean and under control, it's very disturbing to think about the corium that is very unlikely to cool down within 6-9 months. most probably they have to deal with it for the next 1000 years. or how do you put out a volcano ?
    by Edano 5/1/2011 2:51:33 PM

  • @Debra Beckham Yes, it also reminds me of our water distiller. The water evaporates and leaves behind most of the crud in the water. I have to chip out chunks of calcium and iron after I run it a few times.
    by Nancy 5/1/2011 2:53:28 PM

  • @Debra Beckham are you going to use salt from japan and have glow in the dark fishes???
    by fitter 5/1/2011 2:54:31 PM

  • Does anyone know if they are putting boron in the water they are putting in?
    by Nancy 5/1/2011 2:54:36 PM

  • @Edano About that Cobalt-60, note how Tepco measured the amount of Co-60 in the Unit 3 turbine building, and then re-evaluated it to non-detectable. www.tepco.co.jp
    by Bobby1 5/1/2011 2:56:10 PM

  • @Nancy - they better be using borinated water.
    by Lethbridgean 5/1/2011 2:56:22 PM

  • @Ralph Unger my question is salt weighs 72lbs /ft2 is there a accumulation of salt weight going on or is it infact dissoling and overflowing with the water ???
    by fitter 5/1/2011 2:56:47 PM

  • I do not see that listed here. www.tepco.co.jp
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 2:57:43 PM

  • @fitter They said that they reduced the amount of water they were using to limit the overflow.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 2:58:37 PM

  • @Nancy the post at physform is the last sentence of post 5488 pg 343, but i know i seen it further disscused, and i could not find the pic on the pool i was looking for but will, go back and see what i can find... its irritationg... i only have a table lamp for light still waiting on electritions... and my internet comes and goes.... I'll need a better excuse for my lousty spelling once i can see the keyboard
    by fitter 5/1/2011 2:59:48 PM

  • @Bobby1 So it goes from 7.0x10^2 to undetectable and the reason given is that the original numbers were evaluated based on 'main peaks' while the updated numbers were evaluated based on 'radiative balance' -- can anyone explain that a bit?
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 3:00:07 PM

  • @Askwhy I have no clue what that means.
    by Bobby1 5/1/2011 3:00:55 PM

  • @Ralph Unger thats what brings up the question of additioal wieght..... the pools were not designed to have "how much" salt laying on the bottem and its it infact inhibiting the flow of water to the bottom sections of the fuel?????
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:01:21 PM

  • Of course the third part of the footnote on the Cobalt-60 readings is the possibility of ''Transcription Error', but I am going to assume that whomever logged 7.0x10^2 didn't actually mean to write nothing in that box.
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 3:01:24 PM

  • Salt is lighter then water, the only concern would be restriction of water flow. They are using fresh water now so it is no longer a concern except for the corrosive effects of the salt which at high temperatures can be massive.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 3:03:15 PM

  • @Ralph Unger so if i understand you, the seawater salt would be in the overflow.....
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:04:25 PM

  • @Ralph, did the person you contacted say anything about the cobalt in the readings? Wondering if that one reading that was later removed is in the realm of correct and if it means anything?
    by Nancy 5/1/2011 3:05:04 PM

  • @Askwhy Also Cerium-144 was re-evaluated from 2.2x10^6 to nothing.
    by Bobby1 5/1/2011 3:05:11 PM

  • Because of turbulence, that is not guaranteed. But is should help a lot, but they limited the overflow at about the same time they switched to fresh water.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 3:06:23 PM

  • @fitter The salt doesn't even have to limit circulation. Rod deformation and that they've lost the RCIC is enough, alone, to shut down circulation.
    by marie rich 5/1/2011 3:06:50 PM

  • It looks like a mistook the group of footnotes for a single 'set' -- the footnote for the Cobalt simply states that the reading were based on 'main peaks' -- but that still doesn't explain the reduction from something to nothing. At least, not with my limited understanding and perspective. @Bobby1 same footnote on the Cerium-144
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 3:07:03 PM

  • *I* mistook (then mis-typed) =P
    by Askwhy 5/1/2011 3:07:35 PM

  • Do they have any thermals that show better detail on the hot spot in #3 (presumably the SFP). The scales are generally 0 to 30 or 40, which gives pretty good detail on #4, but leaves #3 maxxed out. Also where do we find those thermals, can't locate them?
    by General Armstrong 5/1/2011 3:07:45 PM

  • @Nancy have you seen anywere that they may have been putting on a new reactor cap, one of the US plants had to cut a hole in the wall ot get the cap in, unlike the sheild it dan not be cut in half and rewelded... do you have any clear pics of the hole in building four BEFORE the explosion... that i can blow up, can not see what is there and was wondring if it could be a mantiance opening...To be closed later
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:08:00 PM

  • From TOD " I do question the use of seawater cooling. I hope the Japanese have considered the danger they have created by introducing oxygenated seawater into this stainless steel piping and pressure vessel at boiling temperatures. These stainless steels are extremely susceptible to chloride stress corrosion cracking.

    Since residual weld stresses and tensile stress in piping, valves, control tubing, etc. are always present, Standard Operating Reactor water quality standards require keeping chlorides at parts per billion levels. Seawater has about 3.5% or 35 grams per liter of salinity!!! (i.e. 35,000,000 parts per billion).

    I have no way of knowing how many days they have before a stainless steel component suddenly cracks, but if it were me, I would be advocating an emergency program to get pure deionzied cooling water back into this stainless steel system ASAP. In laboratory tests in boiling chlorides, cracking of stainless in tensile stress can occur within days - they have at most a few months if they keep boiling sea water in this system and yet another disaster occurs." www.theoildrum.com
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 3:08:31 PM

  • @fitter Implication of that could mean NO or more limited secondary containment over BWR SFP during other upgrades??
    by General Armstrong 5/1/2011 3:08:55 PM

  • @marie rich ty, but not looking at cicrculation issure, there would be a different "variavble" if the SPF has a foot or so of salt on the bottom..
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:09:36 PM

  • @General Armstrong that is standard during outages... "safery is acheived in other maners" when you work on a fire system... it can not be operational.... but you will write a procedure to address the "replacement".... and that could be why the opening "CAN NOT BE" on the service floor... and the reactor was non-functional... and it is oveous that SFP do not warrent the same saftey concerns that the reator does..
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:12:38 PM

  • @General Armstrong not sure I understand your last comment... are you saying that in the future is degrades the containment structure, or while there is a opening now????
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:14:26 PM

  • @fitter, no meant that during the opening in building to get big parts in, the SFP would have less protection during outage. But I see you say they can't open the service floor -- under any circumstances? I had assumed from your comment about reactor cap replacement in US NPP that they had opened the service floor to get the cap in...?
    by General Armstrong 5/1/2011 3:17:24 PM

  • From TAD as well " Richard T. Lahey Jr., who was General Electric’s chief of safety research for boiling-water reactors when the company installed them at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, said that as seawater was pumped into the reactors and boiled away, it left more and more salt behind.

    He estimates that 57,000 pounds of salt have accumulated in Reactor No. 1 and 99,000 pounds apiece in Reactors No. 2 and 3, which are larger."
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 3:18:42 PM

  • @General Armstrong don't remember were they cut the hole, but the service floor would allow very little protection, (not that i am impressed with the service floor design anyway....) i belive it made to explode first, so as the move the force away fromthe reator floors...
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:19:51 PM

  • @Ralph Unger or anybody Have wondered but never seen addressed -- whether the salt having deposited might then dissolve as new fresh water is added? By now they must have put a lot more fresh in than salt.
    by General Armstrong 5/1/2011 3:21:21 PM

  • @fitter and @Nancy, I am lurking here in Japan, in Hiroshima. I don't speak Japanese, but I can have things translated by my work colleagues if given a day or two.
    by bo 5/1/2011 3:21:39 PM

  • @General Armstrong without drawings and using bld 1 as a base, it really is just guessing... but they have been putting out pics that you can trace out the systems, based on buld 1,, now is that correct -- anyones guess
    by fitter 5/1/2011 3:21:54 PM

  • @bo Welcome back and TY
    by marie rich 5/1/2011 3:22:16 PM

  • @ General, I don't know but it would be baked on and I think it would be hard to dissolve.
    by Ralph Unger 5/1/2011 3:23:06 PM

  • @fitter No standard "maintenance openings" that I have found in any of the research. None of the images show such either. Looking at the concrete panels they seem to be tied into the concrete framework. If such an opening was available it would only be the size of the holes in the concrete framework. From what I have found so far including articles on the shroud replace nothing mentions trying to open a wall or having a maintenance hatch. I have not found anything yet about a new cap.
    by Nancy 5/1/2011 3:24:09 PM

Japan Earthquake | Page 923

Who's Blogging
  • hudebnikhudebnik
  • albleealblee
  • UKValUKVal
  • Oliver (ScribbleLive)Oliver (ScribbleLive)
  • Jonathan KeeblerJonathan Keebler
  • kaykodhkaykodh
  • PKelleyPKelley
  • MarkfmMarkfm
  • AngieAngie
  • DebDeb
  • Mid ValleyMid Valley
  • Pedro Jesus
  • Matt (ScribbleLive)Matt (ScribbleLive)
  • George GibbGeorge Gibb
  • elainekirkelainekirk
  • lillymunsterlillymunster
  • deandean
  • bobo
  • EdanoEdano
  • IanGoddardIanGoddard