Japan Earthquake | Page 956

  • @nancy I have to get to work but, would like to streamline how i can find some pics that i can enlarge to pic out pipe/equipm that does not interest others.... like the graylocks will identify some systems if we can get more info...
    by fitter 5/3/2011 12:29:02 PM

  • @dean I'll have a roll with my coffee please....
    by fitter 5/3/2011 12:29:48 PM

  • BRB have to run, back in a few
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 12:33:53 PM

  • from the other board i think it's news and techi

    by Edano 5/3/2011 12:34:32 PM

  • Energy autonomy – watch out for the 4th revolution! blog.floriankaefer.com www.energyautonomy.org sfgreen.slated.com www.npdemers.net
    by Edano 5/3/2011 12:51:25 PM

  • THE 4th REVOLUTION - EnergyAutonomy in your local movie theater now.
    by Edano 5/3/2011 12:54:29 PM

  • Morning all -- I have no particular comments or opinion on the 'Teppycam Glow/Worklights' but fwiw, the current (unaltered) image has a very visible spot today...
    by Askwhy 5/3/2011 12:54:35 PM

  • BREAKING NEWS:
    Seabed radiation 100-1,000 times normal level off Fukushima plant: TEPCO
    english.kyodonews.jp
    by estacion 5/3/2011 12:56:30 PM

  • Good evening from Hiroshima all
    by bo 5/3/2011 12:57:52 PM

  • @Askwhy why not post it ? pointscope01.jp
    by Edano 5/3/2011 12:58:57 PM

  • @Edano I guess I figured that anyone who frequents this board has the Teppycam linked by now... Anyways, yup, that's the image...
    by Askwhy 5/3/2011 12:59:41 PM

  • by Edano 5/3/2011 1:00:12 PM

  • pointscope01.jp now i got it !

    by Edano via Pointscope01.jp 5/3/2011 1:03:49 PM

  • @bo hi bosan
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:04:24 PM

  • www.tepco.co.jp A lot of Cs137 in the sea... is that Kyodo breaking news about?
    by Olivier 5/3/2011 1:07:12 PM

  • back and ready for action
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:08:42 PM

  • @dean : hi dean ! why is everything in dark on the site ? wouldn't you better use floodlights at night ?
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:11:11 PM

  • Edano that's been a subject of conversation.. either they black it out or it's just not working
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:28:06 PM

  • it would be the first thing to do for me. i find it very strange.
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:30:33 PM

  • indeed
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:31:31 PM

  • I was reading in the physics forum and found an interesting theory about the explosion in 3
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:32:11 PM

  • listening .....
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:35:24 PM

  • Interesting. Teppycam has both the blue circle and the blue oblong hues tonight. I think that is about the most pronounced I have seen them. We really need heat images and SFP temps.
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 1:35:43 PM

  • I will post it here Edano
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:39:17 PM

  • with one photo
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:39:22 PM

  • fukushima pipe failure theory

    by dean 5/3/2011 1:40:20 PM

  • How do we explain the upward explosion catapulting the FHM in the air?

    Cheers

    |Fred:

    The short answer is that a hydrogen explosion on the top floor does not explain what we see and cannot launch the FHM upward. That is the key.

    The only thing that launches the FHM upward is steam, because if all the water is gone, then the pool is just full of hydrogen like the rest of the upper floor and there is no differential pressure under the FHM when it blows.

    How do we get steam under the FHM? Only way is superheated gas blasting out the transfer chute.

    How does that happen? The containment is full of nitrogen and hydrogen venting occurs to the outside of the containment.

    Remember the lateral acceleration forces from the 9.0 quake that exceeded the design parameters of Unit 3? I was wrong about the weak spot being the torus-to-primary containment link.

    Here is a radiologist's interpretation of Fig. 3, which is the critical information needed here.

    i306.photobucket.com

    That big old steel reactor vessel sets on a pedestal like a long, skinny boiled egg. It is made of heavy steel, and it is full of water and one of the densest things I know of -- uranium.

    The structures in red are pneumatic shock absorbers of some sort. They are intended to stabilize said "egg" in an earthquake if anything gets tippy.

    The torus is in the ground and all that massive concrete structure, not to mention the steel liner inside the primary containment are MASSIVE and firmly anchored to the ground.

    If the lateral acceleration forces exceed the design parameters, the pressure vessel risks becoming the upside down clanger in a giant bell shaking at about a 9 on the Richter scale.

    The key vulnerable structure if that happens is the high pressure steam outlet pipe. If that cracks or leaks, then you have high pressure steam and shortly thereafter, hydrogen in the primary containment, but not in a huge blast, as the torus suppression pool is meant to (hopefully) handle. Apparently that didn't work out so well at Unit 2.

    Now, I can put live steam and hydrogen gas in the primary containment displacing the nitrogen. I can't tell you the exact route to the lower building -- probably via the torus pool then lower floors and up through the lift shaft.

    Anyway, pressure differential vs. atmospheric pressure in the vessel doesn't go to zero, but neither does the pressure build to the same level as an RPV without the damaged pipe and leak. Operators might interpret that as "hold off a short while and let's hope to God the generator gets hooked up and we can cool this off before the pressure goes too high, because Unit 1 exploded when we had to do that the last time!" *

    Addendum:
    *actually the operators had already manually vented the primary containment at 8:42 AM -- but perhaps this also let to more hydrogen in the upper containment, but it means the leak, if there was one either was not so large as to negate the need to vent the RPV, or, perhaps that the rising pressure in the RPV added to the severity of the leak before it was vented.

    In the meantime, some hydrogen could have escaped the the drywell cap seal as well as the transfer gate seal, maybe even a pressurized stream venting to the upper building.

    The reactor vessel is now mostly dry, really, really (red?) hot, and making hydrogen and oxygen. **

    Addendum: ** the explosion(s) occur at 11:15 AM. Thanks for the timeline chart (below)

    BOOM! Gas in the primary containment ignites, blows the drywell cap, and blows out of the transfer chute, and to a lesser extent, out of the gate to the equipment pool. This 1) causes a secondary explosion of the hydrogen above, but more importantly, 2) vaporizes the remaining water in SFP3, turning it into a steam cannon and the FHM goes ballistic. BOOM!!

    The fire and explosion in the upper building propagates to the lower floors which have their own hydrogen, but the pressure from above means that the primary force of the tertiary explosion in the lower floors goes outwards through any path it can find. BOOM!!!

    Now you have the mechanism for the initial fireball at the southeast corner, a ballistic FHM, damage to the equipment pool, blown out upper building, and blown out lower building including the access tunnel, all without a gross breech of the RPV (ie, melted fuel melting through the steel of the RPV).
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:41:12 PM

  • sorry for the length..
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:41:39 PM

  • FHM ?
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:41:58 PM

  • TRYING TO FIND THAT... I think it's the concrete cap or upper covering
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:47:18 PM

  • Yea not heard FHM before. Guessing from the post the concrete cap? It does make sense based on what we already know. The only oddity in his explanation is that the equipment gate is intact but I think that is minor and just may not have been blow completely out. We do see steam leak through the corners of the equipment gate.
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 1:49:48 PM

  • do you have the link to that physics forum page?
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 1:50:23 PM

  • there is also a FHD.. mentioned
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:50:26 PM

  • yes nancy
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:50:30 PM

  • by dean 5/3/2011 1:50:52 PM

  • @Nancy : this may explain that the entire RPV is indeed misplaced, not exactly vertical any more now. (my theory)
    by Edano 5/3/2011 1:52:30 PM

  • it's on page 184
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:53:01 PM

  • If this is a live shot of the plant- what does the changing blue color mean? ongoing reaction? www.youtube.com
    by ch 5/3/2011 1:55:07 PM

  • @Edano I had only thought about it jumping up. This design has a known flaw that the RPV can actually rocket itself upward a few inches. Having lateral movement also. There would have to be lots of torn connections.
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 1:58:27 PM

  • nancy. check out page 186 which has some blast pattern theories and photos..
    by dean 5/3/2011 1:59:23 PM

  • i cantseeiton my phone ch but i did watch ita whileback in daylight and it is the plant
    by elainekirk 5/3/2011 1:59:47 PM

  • @ch All I get is static like a bad image or interrupted signal.
    by Nancy 5/3/2011 1:59:56 PM

  • @ch I have never seen that feed before. What can you tell us about it -- where it is supposedly located
    ? It has so much 'noise' right now that it's hard to make anything else out.
    by Askwhy 5/3/2011 2:00:18 PM

  • @Edano, gm everybody, can't we take this pic: s7.directupload.net and measure the distance between the exposed floor and the rim of the containment and compare that with the height of the exposed concrete pillars of the building (I thought we knew that from the blueprints), to figure out whether the containment still sits at its correct elevation?

    by Peter Melzer via S7.directupload.net 5/3/2011 2:00:33 PM

  • @Askwhy it is clear during the day you can see I think 2,3,4. You can clearly see the smoke frequently coming out.
    by Angie 5/3/2011 2:01:26 PM

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