It doesn't mean that acknowledging the melt somehow makes things better, easier to deal with, it's just a matter of being technically honest.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:06:28 PM
@Markfm - I concur on that assesment Markfm. The real new news is the acknoledgement of how serious this was from the beginning.
by Lethbridgean 5/12/2011 3:09:00 PM
i did never believe the "water filling" story either. same category as curtains and floating pools.
by Edano 5/12/2011 3:10:28 PM
only bs.
by Edano 5/12/2011 3:10:50 PM
@Markfm It's like bo said, the Japanese have a different way of saying things and technically they're not telling lies. Bo posted this earlier - ""The fuel rods probably do not retain the original shape any more." That is very much a Japanese way of talking. It is very impolite to say bad things, and so you say them in a round about way. That is Japanese for, the fuel rods have melted. While it sounds weird, Japanese people can understand it for what the unspoken part is." Course, that's no excuse for our media not to tell it like it is.
by es 5/12/2011 3:11:50 PM
@anon That's amazing. I'm grabbing them all too.
by radioguy 5/12/2011 3:12:38 PM
Just a note on that Greenpeace article on MOX owni.eu The disposal of plutonium was a US-Russia treaty to destroy plutonium available for weapons through irradiation (use) in reactors. gsn.nti.org This wouuld prevent either country from quickly re-building inventory of nuclear weapons. Prehaps MOX (the cure) is better than weapons (the disease). I don't know of a better way of "destroying" the stockpile.
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 3:12:56 PM
have you seen this yet?? video.godlikeproductions.com don't be dissuaded by the beginning -it ends up being a list of all the real levels hacked from tepco!! get it out think about your grandkids etc and everyone you love-it is the right thing to do-too late for us but you can prevent it from happenng again and being explained away as a 'flu' or war or whatever we will be told-this is the most important thing mankind has ever faced-the biggest scientific challenge and challenge to human life
by anon 5/12/2011 3:14:39 PM
Nuclear fuel at Fukushima No. 1 unit melted after full exposure mdn.mainichi.jp Mainichi is carrying the full Kyodo article. "The utility had earlier estimated that 55 percent of the reactor core at the No. 1 unit has been damaged. It is unknown how much fuel melted and dropped to the bottom, but the fuel is unlikely to be at its original position."
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:14:55 PM
@anon links, especially to video, would be more useful, to me at least, with some sort of description attached...TY
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 3:15:09 PM
Trying to catch up here, have been lurking less and less often lately... So TEPCO is finally admitting the obvious - that fuel rods have likely fully melted in the cores and there is 'corium on the floorium'. Isn't the bigger issue still the spent fuel pools, since there is zero containment? Is the situation still such that if any of the 7 locations (cores & SPFs of 1-3, SPF of 4) gets out of control or containment and begins releasing full radiactivity, it would likely domino to the other 6 locations due to lack of physical ability to cool without manual intervention?
by jay 5/12/2011 3:16:37 PM
es, I actually do appreciate the idea of using nuances, it's just that I'm an engineer, and engineers are taught to provide fairly direct information, even if we wish to provide it in the most positive light.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:17:21 PM
Fuel rods were briefly exposed and radiation levels briefly rose above the legal limit at the second reactor Sunday, said Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano.
A partial meltdown in the unit is "highly possible," he told reporters. "Because it's inside the reactor, we cannot directly check it but we are taking measures on the assumption of the possible partial meltdown." article written on March 13, 2011 www.msnbc.msn.com
by Lethbridgean 5/12/2011 3:17:21 PM
@Markfm Since we know that the rods had melted early on, we can look back and see how much Tepco data was in error or falsified.
by Bobby1 5/12/2011 3:17:36 PM
@hudebnik Translation of comment at right of D.S.: proofreading of water position gauge (A) and D/W pressure gauge (PR-1602-16) has ended. D/W pressure gauge measurement is changed to PR-1602-16.
by dh 5/12/2011 3:19:14 PM
@RBeaner will do-btw someone record that vid as I have never seen so much censorship in my life outside of scenarios in the novel 1984-please multiple people save it and get it out to whatever honest journalists are left in this world-if they realized the rad is not going to stop at the Rocky Mountains maybe they wouldnt be so fearful of repurcussions-being on the west coast and Japan those people may actually be the lucky ones-who knows?
by anon 5/12/2011 3:19:23 PM
thank you @dh sorry you were waiting in mod you are now on autopost
@Markfm Yes, directness wins hands down for me too.
by es 5/12/2011 3:24:26 PM
@anon Well that's terrifying. But what can we do??
by NervousinNJ 5/12/2011 3:25:33 PM
@anon Is there anything in that video of use or was it just watching the NO radiation models?
by Nancy 5/12/2011 3:26:35 PM
@Nancy @NervousinNJ : i even don't understand it. what is so terrifying about it ? the voice ?
by Edano 5/12/2011 3:28:49 PM
@anon I need to actually see the full data, in english, before I spend time thinking about it. It could very well be a computer simulation, based on a specific set of "possible" scenarios. I have seen a number of them online touted as "the real thing". We used to generate those for disaster drills at the site. Start with a make believe source term, then the computer takes ofver with real wind and weather data. My guess is Zardoz is a drill scenario.
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 3:29:04 PM
Yes-keep watching and you will see the true levels being released that were hidden on a teppy website-teppy named them ZARDOZ when that was googled a post apocolyptic nuc film w/Connery came up-interesting name choice-
by anon 5/12/2011 3:29:15 PM
@dh - thanks. @anon - the zardoz examples imply that Fukushima must be emitting a constant highly radioactive plume.
by hudebnik 5/12/2011 3:30:32 PM
@RBeaner what are the potential consequences of waiting to think about it?
by anon 5/12/2011 3:30:48 PM
@dh that is what my rad monitor has been telling me here on the west coast
by anon 5/12/2011 3:31:31 PM
Jay, my take on SFPs is that common seems to be under control, 4 is a creaky mess (sure hope they can find some way to shore it up and seal the leaks), but at least they can pour water on it. The RPVs are more problematic due to not having a sure, clean, way to cool them properly.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:34:06 PM
@RBeaner @anon @hudebnik All these models are assuming a constant source emission, or at best, an educated guess about this. It shows you the atmospheric dispersion if X amount of, say, I-131 was emitted on a certain day. How much was emitted has to be inferred from what is going on at the plant.
by Bobby1 5/12/2011 3:34:52 PM
the ZARDOZ info seem sto imply the meltdowns occurred very early on and have been consistently churning at predictable levels that they would have been able to confirm w/air sampling for over 2 months now-if simulations were so wrong it would have been noted early on and they would have been adjusted-remember the fudging of the tmi data? we need to think about this critically, very critically, from all angles, our journalists and science minds need to speak up
by anon 5/12/2011 3:35:08 PM
Then again, #1 is rapidly becoming "water over the dam" -- most probably a hot mass at the bottom. #2, with its odd spikes in S/C radiation, might be a bit "leaky". #3, with its steam/smoke, is "who knows".
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:35:28 PM
(sorry my messages may be disjointed in time -- doing some work-work)
by Markfm 5/12/2011 3:37:35 PM
@anon Get real. That video is a comedy. We're dealing with real data and real information here. Leave the science fiction to some other forum, please.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 3:37:39 PM
@anon Considering it shows a possible 40 Bq/m2 for Alaska, Alaska already has that level, that is nothing. But the clincher was the I131 levels. Those levels simply DO NOT exist now. They may have back in late March, but not now. That file is likely a left over result from some drill or worst case scenario simulation. Don't believe everything you see online. When we ran those drill scenarios, They all stayed on the computer basically forever, sometimes we pulled them up and reran them just to test for response.
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 3:37:54 PM
@anon The video doesn't say the models are from TEPCO - they are located somewhere on the NILU website (Norwegian Institute for Air Research). I agree it's probably a simulation of worst-case.
by jay 5/12/2011 3:40:28 PM
Just a thought here, but if TEPCO wanted a secret super secret special name that only sci-fi fans would understand to label their projections, they have plenty of Japanese references they could use without going into the US film back catalog. Just a thought.
by bo 5/12/2011 3:40:34 PM
@Pedro Jesus -With all due respect to your comment I understand that vid is made by some strange people-makes it very easy to discredit-dontcha think? The real data released at the press conf has been changed more times than I can count and miscalculated by Tepco by their own admission to mathmatical errors -I think the data is from a real source even though the presenter of the data is someone that can not be taken serious-the data should be looked at without bias for what it is not for who discovered it-that is bias and science must be above that for it to be helpful
by anon 5/12/2011 3:42:54 PM
Hi all! Not to mention, it's one of the WORST Sci-fi films ever made!
by LM 5/12/2011 3:43:39 PM
It's just scary to me because it seems like a worst-case scenario is still entirely possible. But I will take this and everything I read with a grain of salt...
by NervousinNJ 5/12/2011 3:43:48 PM
@bo I think we are getting hung on the name of the data set-but the data was just found on the fuku site-who cares what it was named or why-for all we know someone from the US could be collating it or Germany or whatever-let's just have some smart folks at least take a look at it
by anon 5/12/2011 3:45:00 PM
@bo LOL LOL BO yes they have thier own version of Sci-Fi, I suspect it would be Anime!!
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 3:45:08 PM
@anon I think the real question should be...have there been large releases within the last few days? Given what we've seen I'm not sure we can rule it out. We do need more credible data though.
by LM 5/12/2011 3:46:43 PM
@NervousinNJ good point. Might be safe to say this could be a simulation of what could still be coming if the situation worsens dramatically. Just probably doesn't reflect present reality.
by jay 5/12/2011 3:47:21 PM
@RBeaner It's an interesting find, but best I can tell, the Zardoz folder is the working folder for flexpart interactive. In other words they're interactive runs someone asked it to run online, using whatever (realistic or unrealistic) starting terms they wanted. Without knowing if these terms were realistic it's hard to know how much to make of them.
by radioguy 5/12/2011 3:47:33 PM
The cesium-137 release has been pretty constant, so the cesium maps can be trusted to be reasonably accurate.