Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1510

@Peter Melzer @Dennis Tucker Jr @lillymunster On the US plant drawings I have been looking at there are Hydrogen bottles stations that are part of the water treatment system... some are located in the reactor bld and some in turbine bld, actually quite a lot of Hydrogen in the other connecting builds on these drawings.... This is not to say that the systems still use Hydrogen to scavange the oxgen in the water (belive that was the purpose of them) and that also does not mean that the Japan Facilities use then!... I was quite surprised to see the number of bottle banks... as in the beging everyone was saying the you could nto have compressed cylinders... again I caution ... don't know if the hydrogen is still used in the process or has been replaced with other chemicals and the drawong are not FUKU
by fitter 6/5/2011 6:52:20 PM

@elainekirk Michio Kaku knows his stuff, and how to get it out in front of the public, and I haven't quite figured out where he is on the line of outspoken critic/hyperbolist, but he's certainly not out of line saying we're lucky we didn't lose Northern Japan. And we all know it's not out of the woods, but something too rapid to escape is much less likely now. Poisoning not so much so. It's hard to know exactly what to say.

Did you notice this though, with no trace of irony?

CNN Host: No one ever suspected that we had three simultaneous core meltdowns, 100 percent core damage and that sea water of all things stopped a tragedy from taking place. The media if anything, we now realize downplayed the real impact of the accident.
by radioguy edited by elainekirk 6/5/2011 7:05:42 PM

@fitter the sludge tank location is near the area I just mentioned as having a larger blow out on 4 at the lower levels. I have to wonder if there is some secondary system in the building that generated or concentrated hydrogen. It would still need a total amount of something explosive to make 4 blow up. Having a fresh fuel load in the SFP could have caused a bigger problem but #4 sfp looks pristine. Something just doesn't make sense.
by lillymunster 6/5/2011 7:06:04 PM

CNN Host: Duh
by radioguy 6/5/2011 7:07:09 PM

@radioguy thank you and yes the seawater
by elainekirk 6/5/2011 7:09:53 PM

@elainekirk I think what he was referring to is if they had done nothing at all the reactors might have fully exploded ala. Chernobyl. His comment reminded me of Bill Nye the Science Guy. They had him on TV in the early days and he explained the worst case scenario is such scary terms people scoffed at him. As things have evolved his scary scenario has been proven to be right in that if things happened as he explained it would have been that bad. I still don't think the media is fully grasping what an epic mess this is in Japan and what it is really doing to the Pacific.
by lillymunster 6/5/2011 7:12:34 PM

I have 100% confidence in what Michio Kaku says, he is intelligent and not in any way a wacko.
by WolfDK 6/5/2011 7:12:47 PM

@lillymunster Funny how that works, right? Just because you're an alarmist doesn't mean you're wrong.
by radioguy 6/5/2011 7:13:28 PM

@radioguy LOL. Kaku talks in slightly sensationalist terms but he also has a way of explaining the technical so anyone can understand it. Maybe a bit of sensationalism is needed to get people to pay attention.
by lillymunster 6/5/2011 7:14:43 PM

I boggle at the lack of self-aware irony in the host. So does that mean that now he's finally back on the story?
by radioguy 6/5/2011 7:14:43 PM

I agree. It also needs a little normal-people level of explanation, because this is as confusing as cricket (in lieu of another shorter word.) But then, I'm not British. :)
by radioguy 6/5/2011 7:17:28 PM

OMG there are actual DOGS at the plant! I thought they were talking about the raccoon we saw. Check out their video. A couple of dogs have been rescued from the area by one of the rescue groups but still not confirmed it is the dogs at the plant. hachiko-coalition.org
by lillymunster 6/5/2011 7:18:46 PM

@radioguy @Nancy problem is if presented to alarmingly people will not listen instead they will turn to the people offering comfortable, palatable words and a safe future. That is why when really bad news comes out the authorities start talking about 'when the people go home' the most rational intelligent people will convince themselves that they are being told the truth because the alternative is rejected by their emotional being.
by elainekirk 6/5/2011 7:18:49 PM

@lillymunster Sink down? Perhaps not. Displacement, pressurization? Very likely. Hydrogen mixed with oxygen = boom. How long before it exited through whatever hole and accumulated enough in said area to trigger explosion? Unknown. Way too many variables here but we do know that we had fires after the fact in SFP#4, tie that in with the loud boom nearto the bottom of the torus, who's to say that SFP#4 wasn't already leaking down and that the fuel (or whatever other solvent that was burning later) hadn't caught fire while the bldg was still pressurized?

Like I said earlier, I have no facts to back this up, just intuition based on things that I DO know. Opinions/theories ARE welcomed!
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:19:43 PM

@lillymunster ::: One fact we do know: buildup of hydrogen inside building is so dangerous that they have a venting procedure in place.
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:20:55 PM

AND that they cut holes in #5,6 to prevent the same outcome....
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:21:30 PM

@group: Didn't Chernobyl only explode when the corium hit the water on the concrete below? That is my understanding of how the material was dispersed.
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:23:48 PM

@Dennis Tucker Jr : no, there was a graphite explosion.
by Edano 6/5/2011 7:26:13 PM

@Nancy @ All

A theory.

If you look at the report below, the (downwards) explosion in R2 caused the damage in R4, and probably further damaged R3, which had already blown by that time. The three reactors (R2, R3, R4) were likely connected underground, perhaps also by passages for humans. Not just sharing pipes. It is probably as much of a mess below ground as is visible above ground.

The force of the explosion coming up under R4 blew the bottom part of the building outwards and the top caved inwards.

Go to
www.gengikyo.jp

Download
Nuclear Power Stations' Response to the Off the Pacific Coast of Tohoku Earthquake

Scroll to page 4/27
March 15 (Tue)
06：10 An odd noise was heard from around suppression chamber at unit-2,
followed by a drop in the chamber's pressure, suggesting the
development of an abnormal event at the chamber.
06：14 Loud noise left holes in the walls at unit-4.
Smoke was rising from unit-3.
06：51 Confirmed conditions of 1F should be reported under Article 15 of the
Nuclear Emergency Preparedness Act. (around the station's main gate).
(Due to the radiation dose at the site's boundary exceeding the criteria
[500μSv/h])
06：56 The top of the reactor building of unit-4 appeared disfigured.
by jt 6/5/2011 7:26:38 PM

@lillymunster have not read the threads except yours, but the entire wastetreatment/sludge tanks (plus many more) are all contained in what I'll call bunkers... the BP of #1 make a lot of sense now... you would have to look at the US drawings there are about 60, and they have many "hydrogen and radiation" sensers shown on the lower floors and outbuildings that all seem to connect... (US DRAWings rember... but they seem very close... they even have hydrogen on the ground floor of the reactor building..... I really do hope these are sysytems that have been changeg as there are about 21 in the US... In one of the buidings on your pic's (#3?) the truck entry is exploded.... thought I saw an area in the US ones that had bottles in that area.... but have not been able to confirm it since I relooked at the pic's
by fitter 6/5/2011 7:29:55 PM

@Edano We're both incorrect. The graphite rods caught fire as a result of the steam explosion of chernobyl4 that sent materials into the air.
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:35:03 PM

@jt I think you're right, but maybe it started in #3. The #2 and #4 explosions happened almost simultaneously, and the teppycam images indicate that something had happened in #3 also. The 6:00 AM image was just prior to the explosions. gyldengrisgaard.dk
by Bobby1 6/5/2011 7:36:18 PM

@Bobby1 Have you got a copy of the image handy?
by jt 6/5/2011 7:37:11 PM

6 AM gyldengrisgaard.dk
by Bobby1 via Gyldengrisgaard.dk 6/5/2011 7:38:23 PM

@Bobby1 Thanks. Sorry I missed your link before.
by jt 6/5/2011 7:38:45 PM

7 AM gyldengrisgaard.dk
by Bobby1 via Gyldengrisgaard.dk 6/5/2011 7:38:58 PM

old Meti doc says the fire was on the third floor of unit 4 how did they know that?
docs.google.com
strangely enough no explosion in 4's chronology just damage to 4th floor wall and fire on 3rd floor
by elainekirk 6/5/2011 7:43:20 PM

@Dennis Tucker Jr : yep that's why the core was thrown into the air and not into the underground, like in fuku.
by Edano 6/5/2011 7:44:59 PM

If the #3 explosion tore open the containment, 19 hours of corium-concrete reaction would have release plenty of gases underground.
by Bobby1 6/5/2011 7:46:21 PM

@Edano So now we still face the problem of corium actually making it to the pad(s) below, if they haven't already. WHAT THE HECK is that fire at the site right now? Any news on that?
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:46:39 PM

@Bobby1
;#1 venting 12.3. 06:40 10:17 14:30 explosion 15:36
;#2 venting 13.3. 11:00 explosion 15.3. 06:15
;#3 venting 12.3. 20:41 13.3. 08:41-9.20 explosion 14.3. 11:45
by Edano 6/5/2011 7:47:04 PM

@Dennis Tucker Jr the pics below are from march 14.
by Edano 6/5/2011 7:49:25 PM

@Edano looking at those #s, it just seems to me that the bldgs were severely damaged by the quake AND tsunamis, were already losing water, building up hydrogen and the staff was trying to react by venting out the hydrogen at what appears to be at too slow a rate to compensate against the rate of build-up..... It was already too late, their equipment was damaged [THEY DIDNT EVEN REALIZE IT PROBABLY] and one by one they all fell down.
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:50:51 PM

@Edano THANK YOU for that clarification lol
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:51:10 PM

@Dennis Tucker Jr ;)
by Edano 6/5/2011 7:51:33 PM

@fitter can you email me links to those US drawings your using? I have to run.
by lillymunster 6/5/2011 7:51:56 PM

@Edano AND they had no power....
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 7:52:29 PM

@all Did anyone read the Gundersen interview posted yesterday..I don't have the link? He suggested concern that there is still corium in the RPV of #3 that might fall through the bottom-en masse-suddenly with corrosion and tremors, potentially setting off a huge steam explosion. It was an interesting and frightening interview.
by LM 6/5/2011 7:53:24 PM

i updated the plots with the venting and explosion and other data. if it helps to understand ..... www.houseoffoust.com
by Edano edited by Edano 6/5/2011 7:54:06 PM

@lillymunster when I printed them it did not put the web address on the page and it cut the title box and notes off or in half depending... I was trying to find someone on the site to see if my printer had a history bank, but could not get it figured out... I don't know where I got them, I print a lot and look at it later! I am still trying to find, but I know I also pick up a virus in the same two hours as when I was finding them? so I've been leary of ramdon searching.. will let you know if I have any luck
by fitter 6/5/2011 7:55:31 PM

Found the link to the Gundersen interview for those who haven't read it yet..... www.chrismartenson.com
by LM 6/5/2011 7:56:42 PM

@elainekirk "strangely enough no explosion in 4's chronology just damage to 4th floor wall and fire on 3rd floor" R4 didn't have its own explosion. It had the force of an explosion from R2 (Bobby1 suggests R3) come up underneath it.
by jt 6/5/2011 7:59:29 PM

@Edano Those are awesome graphs, sir. One request is to get them to synchronize them for the timeline (i.e. 03/15 in same spot on all graphs).

But as great as they are either the data is reported incorrectly or something just isn't making sense (not faulting the graph, but the info that was available to collect). All of these indicate that there is no meltdown yet Tepco admits that probably all 3 did??????? Very very odd.
by Dennis Tucker Jr 6/5/2011 8:03:13 PM