Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2274

The wet well only works if it is partially filled with water and not itself so hot it is boiling/turning to steam. There is also a known flaw with the torus suppression system if a hard fast burst is sent down into the wetwell it will act like a water hammer and can damage the torus. Someone mentioned the torus loop in some reactors had to be reinforced to deal with this.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:03:24 AM

@lillymunster And there's also the known flaw where the spokes that hold up the RPV can fail in a quake. We don't know whether Unit 2 (or any of them, for that matter) had suffered damage in the joints to the torus from the 9.0 quake.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:05:59 AM

@RadioGuy , the standby coolant systems RCIC and HPIC may draw water from the suppression pool, once the condensate tank from which they draw by default is exhausted. Happened here.
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:06:18 AM

@Peter Melzer And then what happens?
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:06:50 AM

I guess then, when it's empty, it's prone to what lilly said below.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:08:19 AM

Chuckling... I was just thinking... I know I never really intended to become so conversant with the internal workings of old BWRs. ;)
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:09:36 AM

@RadioGuy , they fail! I am just kidding you. Honestly, I do not know. But I do not think the suppression pools ran out of water before the explosions. The suppression pool water is supposed to be cooled by Residual Heat Removers whose cooling water is provided by the ocean. Those contraptions were overwhelmed by the tsunami.
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:10:11 AM

@RadioGuy if there is no water in the torus nothing to suppress the steam or gasses etc. It would just fill up. The only cooling would be whatever convection from outside the pipe.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:12:48 AM

@lillymunster , you guys remember a lot of things. They retrofitted SPARGERS to disperse the jets of hot steam and gas.
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:12:51 AM

@Peter Melzer I would tell you what color the tile was in my mom's lake condo in the 70's. :-) I'm just chuck full of random sometimes useful info. :-)
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:13:52 AM

@RadioGuy , true there is a structural weakness in the spokes and they had to reinforce the torus with braces od some sort.
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:14:01 AM

this was a nice crowd-sourcing session this nite. thanx, ladies and gentlemen, till tomorrow :)
by Edano 8/30/2011 2:14:27 AM

@Edano nite!
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:15:02 AM

Me too, same here, according to wife mostly useless facts unnecessary for daily survival like name of long-gone dictators.
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:15:33 AM

@Edano nite. epic day for you :)
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:15:49 AM

phone numbers from the 70s
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:16:14 AM

the lengths, how they begin, and how they end for tens of thousands of songs... though I still use that. ")
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:17:35 AM

but often what I had for breakfast can elude me :)
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:18:11 AM

@RadioGuy , true. Music is of course special. I get flashbacks while hearing certain songs. My head is all hot. Time for me as well to bid good nite. I see y'all in the mornin!
by Peter Melzer 8/30/2011 2:20:19 AM

nite
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:21:20 AM

This excerpt is just one of several examples that Tepco distinguishes between RPV and the primary containment vessel (they call the reactor containment vessel) in the March 13th press releases…

"Spraying in order to lower pressure level within the reactor containment vessel has been cancelled.
- After that, safety relief valve has been opened manually, lowering the pressure level of the reactor, which was immediately followed by injection of sea water and boric acid which absorbs neutron, into the reactor pressure vessel."

So when Tepco says in each March-13th press release, "Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside the reactor containment vessel," they're not denying that water is leaking from the RPV. Moreover, they're even conceding that they have good reason to believe the RCV (aka, primary containment vessel) is being unavoidably flooded and so they're assuring the public in that statement that it's stopping there.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:21:31 AM

Okay, sorry, now I question my reading. "Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside the reactor containment vessel" may mean leakage into the RCV, not out of.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:24:51 AM

So we're back to that it that statement iterated per March-13 press release smells like fishy legalease you'd only make when you actually suspect what you feel compelled to deny is the case.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:29:29 AM

@Ian TEPCO has a long track record of that kind of statement. Elaine and I found piles of them in TEPCO documents.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:30:14 AM

They never give away anything. I've called them liars before, but they lie by ommission of important pieces, it seems.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:30:21 AM

So are they using terms consistently or changing what they call them? If TEPCO always uses the same terminology it is easier to sort out what they mean.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:32:37 AM

@lillymunster, the mere fact that the statement is applied per press release like a formula is prima facie evidence that it was placed under legal advise, which in turn is prima facie evidence that they knew there was some risk that specifically required that statement.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:33:30 AM

@lillymunster I think when they commit language to a retrievable medium, they make sure they have deniability. Consistent language, even if obscured by different measurement units and the like, would be key to that.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:35:03 AM

@Ian right. There is lots of reading between the lines with TEPCO. Someone said early on part of it is Japanese subtlety that is part of language and manners. The rest typical corporate liability dodging by carefully wording what is said.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:35:26 AM

Since there were so many legal and liability pitfalls, they just decided to say nothing for a while.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:36:09 AM

The no leaks in reactor containment vessel in the context Ian found really does sound like they are talking about outer containment failure or the lack of. It is kind of a random answer to a question nobody asked.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:37:10 AM

@lillymunster I agree.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:37:33 AM

@RadioGuy, "lie by ommission of important pieces, it seems." That's usually the case, per se, with any institutional misleading. And it's why I like theories that make the least assumptions of outright lying, because real misleads are usually affected by some 'slight of hand', not outright fabrications.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:41:30 AM

back
by dean 8/30/2011 2:43:56 AM

A momentary aside. This date in history: www.ctbto.org

On 29 August 1949, the Soviet Union conducted its first nuclear test, code-named 'RDS-1', at the Semipalatinsk test site in modern-day Kazakhstan. The device had a yield of 22 kilotons.

It was no coincidence that the RDS-1-device bore a close resemblance to the U.S. ‘Fat Man’ bomb dropped on Nagasaki, as Soviet espionage had managed to obtain details about the U.S. Manhattan Project and the ‘Trinity’ test on 16 July 1945. The Soviet device was therefore also a plutonium-based implosion device.

The fallout from the nuclear test drifted to the northeast, reaching the region of Altai Krai. Traces from it were also detected by the United States, alerting it to the fact that its monopoly on nuclear weapons had been broken.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:45:47 AM

An example of guilty denial (like Tepco's statement) is youtube channels that repost wholesale major-media content and post a Fair Use defense, usually quoting the law. But they only post that denial that they're breaking copyright law because they know (or at least know it could look like) they're violating copyright. So they deny exactly what they know they are, or may be, or may seem to be guilty of violating. So to Tepco says over and over: "Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside the reactor containment vessel."
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:49:15 AM

Rice OK to be ship grown 60K's from Fukushia plant. I wonder what no problem really means
www.news.com.au
by standbybarry 8/30/2011 2:50:27 AM

Hi everyone, I read the blog regularly but dont comment very often. News from Australia - Rice Ok 60k from Fukushima plant, I wonder what no problem really means. www.news.com.au
by standbybarry 8/30/2011 2:50:38 AM

@standbybarry, "OK" usually means containing Govt approved "safe levels" of nuclear waste.
by Ian 8/30/2011 2:52:14 AM

@standbybarry I saw an article yesterday that said a farm in the far end of the prefecture was tested "clean" so they are shipping rice. No other word on wider testing, where to find results, how things are being monitored?
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:53:13 AM

@Ian Or it is below 500 bq/kg so don't ask us what the reading really was.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:53:52 AM

@lillymunster Or is it read by meters that top out, then get quoted as the highest readable.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 2:57:52 AM

@RadioGuy never any details at least in the media. Just "it is clean". This really is not a transparent process. That is making it worse because now everything is suspect due to the dodgy way food safety is being handled.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 2:59:00 AM

Japan’s New Leader May Soften Anti-Nuclear Stance of Predecessor
www.bloomberg.com
Yoshihiko Noda, who was elected today as the head of Japan’s ruling party, may represent a departure from the anti-nuclear policy of his predecessor, according to a statement made before he was elected.
“I will set up a nuclear safety agency to consolidate the regulatory framework and regain public trust in atomic power generation,” Noda said in the policy statement on Aug. 27.
His comments suggest a softer stance towards nuclear energy than outgoing Prime Minister Naoto Kan who called for Japan to end its reliance on atomic power after the worst nuclear accident in 25 years.
by RadioGuy 8/30/2011 3:02:46 AM

Report of a 40 year old worker who died of lukemia and was working at the plant. Trying to sort out details. Got the original from TokyoRich. The press conf from TEPCO supposedly confirmed it but no subtitles. He is digging up other info. TEPCO is trying to claim this wasn't related to his work at the plant.
by lillymunster 8/30/2011 3:06:10 AM