Japan Earthquake | Page 2271

  • @Edano I will try Edano :)
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:33:08 PM

  • walkie talkie or camera, my monies on walkie talkie or maybe camera....nah walkie talkie

    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:33:54 PM

  • they are watching us.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 9:35:21 PM

  • @elainekirk Hand held PC or smartphone? I think he is either reading or viewing something.
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 9:39:26 PM

  • or gps navigation.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 9:45:02 PM

  • doesn't someone know a worker that tweets anonymously that we could ask what the heck they're doing? so frustrating/eerie!
    by Panserbjorne9 8/29/2011 9:48:02 PM

  • back for a bit
    by dean 8/29/2011 9:50:27 PM

  • @dean hi
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:51:06 PM

  • @elainekirk As long as it is under 8,000bq per kg it can be buried by the tea producer. If it is over 8,000 they should contact their city office.
    by Will 8/29/2011 9:51:24 PM

  • @Panserbjorne9 have we seen the top of the nearest tower on the tbs/jnn?
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:51:42 PM

  • @Will you are a marvel, a treasure , thank you :)
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:52:17 PM

  • @elainekirk not that i'm aware of. I havent checked recently though
    by Panserbjorne9 8/29/2011 9:53:19 PM

  • @Panserbjorne9 dunno they certainly have us guessing
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 9:55:47 PM

  • What are you trying to get a better view of or figure out?
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 10:00:34 PM

  • HOUSTON (Reuters) - Dominion Resources workers were inspecting the North Anna nuclear power plant in Mineral, Virginia on Wednesday, a day after the largest earthquake to hit the U.S. East Coast in six decades knocked both reactors offline, the company said.

    A series of plates that recorded Tuesday's 5.8 magnitude quake were sent to an outside company for analysis, a Dominion spokesman said.

    "This is the first time a seismic event has shut down one of our power stations," said Dominion spokesman Jim Norvelle. "We are seeking a quick turnaround."

    Dominion reported no "major" damage to the North Anna station which automatically shut when the earthquake disrupted the flow of outside power needed to operate the plant's many safety systems.

    Diesel generators started up, as designed, to keep the reactors' radioactive cores cool until off-site power was restored about seven hours after the 2 p.m. EDT earthquake.

    In addition to looking for possible quake damage at North Anna, federal nuclear regulators want to see seismic data from the site to determine if the quake was stronger than the plant was designed to withstand.

    That will be critical in determining how long the 1,806-megawatt station will remain shut, officials said.

    "In light of the quake's strength and proximity to the plant, the NRC will soon decide whether to conduct a follow-up inspection, aimed at determining how the quake compares to what the plant was designed to withstand," the NRC said in a statement. ------- NOW my comments to this statement on North Anna, 1) if the seismic trips are in service their response time is much much much less that that of the off site power and they should have not said an off site power loss caused the reactor to shutdown - 2) a confession of no major damage is an admission that there was damage and we should know what it is - 3) the NRC should not say.. "in light of what happened they may perform a "follow-up" visit to see if it was higher than the plant was designed.... this is the kind of information that makes people upset
    by dean 8/29/2011 10:01:02 PM

  • The quake on Lake Anna
    Here’s one more account I just had to pass on. It comes from Jay Nesmith of Spotsylvania. He went down to Anna Point Marina on Tuesday to get his boat in advance of Hurricane Irene’s arrival.
    “It was such a gorgeous day, I thought I’d take a little ride,” he told me today.
    The lake was like glass. “I rode down past [North Anna Power Station] by a dike where we like to go swimming.”
    He had his life jacket on and was preparing to jump in. The spot is about 50 feet deep.
    “I started to hear this rumble, and I thought they were doing some construction at the plant. It was a rumble that sounded very deep beneath the boat. All of a sudden, the [aluminum pontoon boat] started to rattle. Then it got really intense, as though someone were under the boat, pushing it up and down.” The boat rose about a foot and a half, he said, four or five times.
    “I’d been in a small earthquake in California, but nothing like this. The shock waves took a very long time to subside.”
    The lake, he recalled, was still strangely glass smooth.
    The next strange thing: “It was like a Jacuzzi at the top of the lake” which he reckons were gas bubbles released from the bottom.
    Back at the landing, he heard a roar from the power plant, and saw some black smoke rising. That turned out to be related to an automatic shutdown at the plant, which was just around the next bend.
    And, “When I went to get the truck, the trailer had bounced three feet into the next parking place.”
    blogs.fredericksburg.com

    Interesting firsthand account of the quake at North Anna.
    by joniver 8/29/2011 10:06:04 PM

  • @Dean. They put unit 1 into cold shutdown but still have unit 2 in hot standby. They say they are now going to put 2 into cold shutdown. Is there a technical reason for doing this vs. putting both in cold shutdown at the same time? I wondered if the two reactors are too much for the lake to deal with.
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 10:06:18 PM

  • At North Anna, the ground motion was registered on a sensor attached to a transformer that takes high-voltage electricity from the grid and converts it to a lower voltage that can be used inside the plant. The sensor disconnected the transformer, according to plant officials, and that caused automatic shutdowns of the turbines — the devices that turn steam from the reactor into the rotary motion to turn a generator. When the turbines “tripped,” the reactors followed..... for a COMMERCIAL POWER PLANT to have this happen is not right.... you don't initiate a scram to the facility by tripping power and then the reactor.. DUMB
    by dean 8/29/2011 10:11:26 PM

  • @ lilly.. I think it sounds like they had @2 in a stable but hot standby and focused on #1 first, in light of what has happened all over ,,, and then, hopefully they will get #1 there also, In addition, they did do some venting off steam on the plant and that would put some kind of transient on the system that would have to be stabliized
    by dean 8/29/2011 10:18:48 PM

  • @lilly did they dispel the information about the seismic system being removed? when earlier there had been shutdowns from seismic with 4.2 magnitude
    by dean 8/29/2011 10:20:53 PM

  • time for my ride...
    by dean 8/29/2011 10:21:55 PM

  • @dean Have not seen anything confirming they still have a seismic trip system. The last report we had of a seismic trip at Anna was 2003. I sent an email to Dominion Virginia's PR office and asked them to please correct this if it is inaccurate (the link we had that said seismic gear was removed). I have gotten no reply.
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 10:22:30 PM

  • @lillymunster begining to sound like they didnt like the expense the automatic system cost them
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 10:24:24 PM

  • Photos 24 and 25 for pictures of North Anna the day after the quake.
    www.washingtonpost.com
    by joniver 8/29/2011 10:27:35 PM

  • iangoddard.com Here's the mapping of Unit 3 reactor pressure onto the graph in Ott et al. www.osti.gov showing the melt-through phase. The timing of the Unit-3 pressure data points is accurately scaled. The fit is virtually perfect!

    by Ian via Iangoddard 8/29/2011 10:33:12 PM

  • @Edano I found some original maps just got to find you English now radioactivity.mext.go.jp ah they may be wrong ones not sure give me a minute
    by elainekirk 8/29/2011 10:35:47 PM

  • Of course the pressure data (like time) is also accurately scaled into Ott et al.
    by Ian 8/29/2011 10:36:19 PM

  • @Ian nice elaboration. good that there are a lot of measurings in the first days. so you neglect the first pressure drop in the night ? :)
    i'm nearly convinced that you are right.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 10:39:43 PM

  • the pressure graphs have always been puzzling me. now it seems to make sense.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 10:40:54 PM

  • www.houseoffoust.com

    @Ian : and now the same for #2, please ! www.tepco.co.jp

    by Edano via Houseoffoust 8/29/2011 10:41:30 PM

  • @lillymunster , The story on the removal of seismic sensors around the plant premises fifteen years ago pertained to a Virginia Tech study unrelated to the operator, Fitter found out the other day. The reactors in Japan are equipped with sensors, picking up vibrations of the control rods. I suppose that such signals are used for an automatic seismic trip. When the power-generating turbine trips, the steam from the reactor is directly led into the main condenser, bypassing the turbine and generating plenty more steam than usual.
    by Peter Melzer 8/29/2011 10:41:36 PM

  • @Peter Melzer Do we know if Anna has a seismic trip system and if they do why did it not work?
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 10:42:25 PM

  • @Edano, thanks! Yeah, I ignored the first drop, I assume as you do that it's bad data. Yeah, look at Unit 2 too! I bet 1, 2, and 3 will all fit closely!
    by Ian 8/29/2011 10:45:08 PM

  • @lillymunster , no we don't?
    by Peter Melzer 8/29/2011 10:45:20 PM

  • and even if it isn't bad data, it doesn't affect the implicit meaning of the final fall.
    by Ian 8/29/2011 10:46:06 PM

  • @Peter Melzer that seems problematic since now they are saying it was likely beyond design basis. If they do have seismic trip equipment in place and a beyond design basis (likely) quake didn't trip the reactors before the power outage did? I was under the impression all nuclear reactors in the US would have such a system. Either we are missing a piece of information or something isn't right.
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 10:47:56 PM

  • @Ian for #1 we have very bad data www.houseoffoust.com somehow the readings are too late. #1 melted down too fast.

    by Edano via Houseoffoust 8/29/2011 10:48:32 PM

  • @Ian in #2 we have the same initial drop before the meltdown, a bit different, but a drop as well.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 10:51:52 PM

  • and we have a significant drywell pressure rise from core dripping on cement in #2, more significant than in #3 !
    by Edano 8/29/2011 10:53:50 PM

  • @lillymunster , some do, note the conditional in this piece: www.nrc.gov
    by Peter Melzer 8/29/2011 10:54:25 PM

  • Conclusion: This issue was given a low priority ranking (see Appendix C) in November 1983. In NUREG/CR-5382,1563 it was concluded that consideration of a 20-year license renewal period did not change the priority of the issue. Further prioritization, using the conversion factor of $2,000/man-rem approved1689 by the Commission in September 1995, resulted in an impact/value ratio (R) of $71,428/man-rem, which placed the issue in the DROP category. :(
    by Peter Melzer 8/29/2011 10:55:46 PM

  • @lillymunster ian found a very good explanation for the pressure readings. this explanation dates the meltdowns and core breaches much earlier than nisa. maybe we could make an article on that theory (if ian doesn't mind). this could be a very good story.
    by Edano 8/29/2011 10:56:48 PM

  • @Ian in #2 graph, you can even see the predicted pressure "shaking" (up and downs) on "structural relocation, core slump and vessel dryout" before core breach !
    by Edano 8/29/2011 11:03:36 PM

  • @Edano I have been trying to keep up with it today in between popping in and out. I saw the chart below, is that temp or pressure?
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 11:03:57 PM

  • @Peter Melzer some do. Jeez.
    by lillymunster 8/29/2011 11:05:00 PM

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