Japan Earthquake | Page 774

  • @Tenzing Great find!
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 1:46:52 PM

  • @Nancy: the point is if this came from inside #4, the only way for it to get on the roof is to go through the roof, mechanics laws dictates; I don't believe such a huge thing flying as a boomerang ! ;)
    There's only one huge hole in this roof, then it has to have gone through it; in fact the hole has to be the result of the impact of this thing jumping up.
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 1:46:53 PM

  • Summary of some of Joe Miller's Experience. This is my Blog.
    My name is Joe miller and among other things, I am a nuclear engineer. To give you an idea of where my perspective is coming from, I will provide some of my back ground information. I have more than 35 years in the nuclear energy field. I worked at a boiling water reactor (BWR) for 9 years where I was a senior engineer responsible for many safety systems that help mitigate loss of coolant accidents such as the reactor core isolation cooling (RCIC) system, the residual heat removal system (RHRS), and the emergency diesel generators (EDGs). I was involved with safety assessments of the emergency diesel generators (EDGs) and supported engineering and maintenance of these systems. As supervisor of Engineering analysis, I was responsible for developing a probabilistic risk assessment (PRA) that cover external events such as fire, seismic and flooding events. Additionally, I was responsible for most of the safety analyses on site and I also performed loss of coolant accident (LOCA) simulations and I was responsible for fuel reload thermal hydraulic analysis and reactor transient analysis. As Director of Nuclear Engineering on site, I was responsible for developing and implementing the station's emergency operating procedures (EOPs) and the severe accident management procedure guidelines (SAMGs). I was also responsible for all reactor fuel on site, which included fuel in the reactor and fuel in the fuel storage pit. This responsibility also included all reloads, safety analyses and support for operations and reactor engineering in all areas of fuel. josephmiller.typepad.com
    by Tenzing 4/20/2011 1:47:54 PM

  • @nancy this article sounds like the spider equipment will try and find pics (I need to sign off computor is not likeing the power glitches..) www.nuclearcounterfeit.com
    by fitter 4/20/2011 1:49:12 PM

  • josephsmiller.com Link to Joseph S. Miller's Papers and Presentations
    by Tenzing 4/20/2011 1:49:22 PM

  • @Jocelyn Mayer Looking at 2 angles of 4. The only roof spans broken or out of place are the end ones by that big long piece of debris.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 1:49:32 PM

  • will see what i can dig up for early images of 4 between events those might help
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 1:50:53 PM

  • @Reed: sorry I did not answer sooner; I'm not a nuclear stuff specialist, so I'm not really the guy to comment about radionucleides.
    The only thing I can tell is what logic suggests: short half-life elements has to have been produced a few times ago and heavy metallic elements (like plutonium) can only be spread away by explosion or fire.
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 1:51:44 PM

  • I'm pretty sure WL is relative to "top of rods". For example, see theenergycollective.com , which includes the footnote "*1: Minus figure means that water level is below the top of the fuel rods." (the link just reproduces the FEPC Washington office handout -- I've seen other sites repro them.)|
    by Markfm edited by Markfm 4/20/2011 1:53:23 PM

  • @Jocelyn Mayer Thank you very much.
    by Reed 4/20/2011 1:54:47 PM

  • @Nancy: the way #4 north wall look and the fact the north roof "row" seems highly damaged make me pretty sure this thing has been flying inside the building, bounced against the wall and went through the roof, and is now laying up there in a delicate balance.
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 1:55:25 PM

  • @Markfm www.jsme.or.jp i don't know if Jocelyn Mayer got a post earlier from me, but could you look at this and give me feed back on the mecahanical vs weld joints... this is an alternate shroud replacment... don't know if they are using it or not.... could not picture what they are call tee/toe boxes... i'll be back computor is acting up
    by fitter 4/20/2011 1:56:53 PM

  • @Jocelyn Mayer it had to come from 4. could it have been pulled up and out somehow?
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 1:56:56 PM

  • @Markfm: I used to think that too. Until I saw such technical documents telling 0 instrument level is not the fuel top level. This is consistent with having nearly 10 meters of water when reactor is in shutdown: this document show the upper shutdown level is 400" above 0 instrument level
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 1:57:28 PM

  • @fitter: sorry, got no time right now to study this... Got work to do...
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 1:58:02 PM

  • Wednesday, April 13, 2011 07:52 +0900 (JST) ●Radioactive strontium detected outside 30km zone

    Japan's science ministry says small amounts of radioactive strontium have been

    detected in soil and plants outside the 30-kilometer zone around the Fukushima

    plant where the government has advised people to stay indoors. Strontium could

    cause cancer.


    The ministry has been monitoring the level of radioactive substances in soil and

    weeds in Fukushima Prefecture.

    It found 3.3 to 32 becquerels of strontium 90 per kilogram of soil in samples

    taken from 3 locations in Namie Town and Iitate Village, 30 kilometers from the

    plant.


    An extremely small amount of strontium was also found in plants taken from

    Motomiya City, Ono Town and Otama and Nishigo Villages. The areas are 40 to

    80 kilometers from the Fukushima plant.


    Strontium 90 has a half-life of 29 years. It tends to accumulate in bones and

    could cause cancer.


    The ministry says the amount found is extremely low and will not have a

    negative health impact even if a person ingested one kilogram of the

    contaminated soil.

    The samples were taken between March 16 and 19.

    A nuclear engineering expert says the fact that strontium was detected proves that

    the fuel in the reactor or the spent fuel in the pool was damaged at that point.
    He

    says a hydrogen explosion occurred at Reactor 3 around that time and the

    particles may have been carried by winds. feed://josephmiller.typepad.com/battle-to-stabilize-the-f/atom.xml
    by Tenzing 4/20/2011 1:59:23 PM

  • See also NISA, for example www.nisa.meti.go.jp states under the plant parameters table "*2: Distance from the top of fuel". Have to disagree on this one -- I really do not see NISA explicitly adding a footnote to clarify what the number means and getting the footnote wrong.
    by Markfm edited by Markfm 4/20/2011 2:00:57 PM

  • @Nancy: I agree; I think the explosion threw this away in a upper / north direction, it bounced against the wall (and badly damaged the wall then), then went through the roof. Note that this stuff is likely to have broken when hitting the wall and the roof, there should be debris of this below; you can imagine the energy needed for this to happen....
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:01:34 PM

  • @Markfm: yes, you may be wrong; this is to be clarified.
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:01:54 PM

  • @all: got to work now....
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:02:05 PM

  • interesting tidbit abt 4 sfp from tenzig"s link In addition to the reactor fuel, other reactor internals, i.e., steam dryer, cycle separators and stand pipes, and the upper head, were all removed and placed in the SFP for shielding purposes since these materials are radioactive.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:02:07 PM

  • @Jocelyn Mayer If it hit the wall going north the wall would have caved out not in. Something pulled that wall in... I still think your right that the scrap on the roof had to have come from inside. Is the new shroud round when it arrives on site or flat?
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:03:21 PM

  • @Nancy yup plus a number of items including items on crane etc fell some of them landin in reactor ,
    by elainekirk 4/20/2011 2:08:13 PM

  • @elainekirk I have to wonder if some of those extra objects in the SFP are the cause of some of that radiation found outside 4.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:12:02 PM

  • @Nancy: I meant it did hit the north wall _from inside_, then flying to the north and up direction; then the wall damages seem logical: it has been pushed outside by a huge shock from inside.
    The upper part of the wall is caved in just because the wall has been caved out below; like a piece of paper tied to its edges: push in the middle, the place you push will go in a direction, the upper part will fall the other direction.
    Don't know if my explanations are clear...
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:14:17 PM

  • QUESTION: Why didn't TEPCo transfer the SF to the CSFP during Core Shroud Replacement at Unit 4?
    by Tenzing 4/20/2011 2:15:27 PM

  • @Tenzing: thanks for the infos !
    Why ? Because they never though there could be a problem in the SFP.
    What could happen to an empty reactor ? Nothing .... except what happened; was not planned, then nothing has been done to prevent it...
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:18:57 PM

  • @Jocelyn Mayer I will keep looking at that potential as I go through 4's images and see if it matches up.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:19:28 PM

  • The core shroud and other internals replacement had carried out at Fukushima-Daichii Unit #3(1F3) of Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCo) in Japan. And the in-core monitor (ICM) housing replacement had carried out at Fukushima-Daichii Unit #4 (1F4). Both projects are the first experiences of the replacement procedures developed for the welded core shroud and ICM housing. The outline and experience of these projects are discussed in this paper. When the crack was found in the Fukushima-Daiichi #2 (1F2), the core shroud was reinforced by the brackest which has been studied as one of the repair concept. www.jsme.or.jp
    by Tenzing 4/20/2011 2:24:34 PM

  • @Nancy: OK, great !
    by Jocelyn Mayer 4/20/2011 2:24:46 PM

  • Since NISA clarified their English reactor status report, which stated "*: Distance from the top pellet" on 15 March www.nisa.meti.go.jp to state "*1: Distance from the top of fuel." in www.nisa.meti.go.jp it really is not ambiguous. FEPC's version of the footnote was their attempt to be even more clear.
    by Markfm edited by Markfm 4/20/2011 2:27:06 PM

  • Hey there, scribe tribe!
    by Jim Carver 4/20/2011 2:30:07 PM

  • @Jim Carver Hi Jim! I have a few PDF's I will email over to you for archiving.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:31:47 PM

  • New thermography, reactor 4 core is very hot in competition with SFP (11C more): www.mod.go.jp
    by xxx 4/20/2011 2:31:56 PM

  • Highly radioactive water removal continues, water level drops by 1 cm
    "The condenser (where we want to store water) is already full and water appears to be flowing in. We don't know the reason" mdn.mainichi.jp
    by Reed 4/20/2011 2:33:32 PM

  • @Nancy I will send you a password for the site, and then you can have access. I was going to do it last night, but ran out of gas.
    by Jim Carver 4/20/2011 2:34:28 PM

  • @xxx They haven't been releasing any temperature data for reactor 4 or SFP, have they? Is the thermography image all we have?
    by jay 4/20/2011 2:36:55 PM

  • @jay yes
    by xxx 4/20/2011 2:37:56 PM

  • Still curious about the actual source of #4 core heat, though it normally isn't all that high a number. By chance do the peaks in core thermography temp come the same day, or day before, we see a large injection of water into #4 SFP? Dumping into SFP, leak through the gate into the core masking residual heat until it goes away (maybe leak in the penetrations at the bottom of the well)?
    by Markfm 4/20/2011 2:38:50 PM

  • @xxx That is becoming concerning. Images from the 14th show smoke or steam out of that general area. Are we still getting watering data for #4. The info about what time and how much water they spray on 4?
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:39:09 PM

  • It tends to be reported in the NISA Seismic damage reports, just that you have to parse the text to see when and how much they choose to pour in on a given day.
    by Markfm 4/20/2011 2:39:54 PM

  • @Nancy Yes but I dont thin that this is related to injecting water to SFP, at new thermal images you can see that SFP is not so hot, so they was injecting water
    by xxx 4/20/2011 2:40:56 PM

  • @Markfm THere has been talk that the seals on #4 sfp are leaking. Not sure if that includes the gate door closure system or just is seals around where the gate joins the 2 units. But water runnoff falling into the core well could account for the heat/cool cycle we are seeing. Still stumped by the heat signature in front of the yellow reactor cap. We have a few days where that heats up and there are enough landmarks to tell it is another area, past the well.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:41:21 PM

  • @xxx Yes the SFP seems cool today. They seem to alternate between sfp and the well area or deck near it being hot. We did notice they were spraying 2 areas on 4. the pool, the nozzle will be angled down. And also video and images of them spraying across the roof likely trying to reach the other hot spot. The more we look at 4 the more it shows that something really odd happened in the explosion and fires.
    by Nancy 4/20/2011 2:42:56 PM

  • look on 18th sfp was 20C and core 25C, today it is 18C SFP and 29C core...
    by xxx 4/20/2011 2:42:58 PM

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