Japan Earthquake | Page 818

  • @Nancy @James Ward 130.226.56.153 page 38-41

    The SL-1 accident en.wikipedia.org released more iodine than cesium, this goes into the reason... think of the reactor #4 issue.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 4:15:58 PM

  • @Nancy will these plans from slide 20 cheer you up? ]it is #4 from hitachi docs.google.com I have saved the doc to my google docs so could send it if you are interested
    by elainekirk 4/23/2011 4:19:05 PM

  • NOTE: The major means of cooling a reactor with fuel damage caused by a LOCA is the suppression pool. This is achieved by blow down of steam thru pipes and valves into the s/p. The s/p has a very narrow range in which the water level must be kept for it to function as designed: 12'4" to 12'6". Tepco now admits that unit 1 suppression pool is full of water. This makes it extremely difficult to cool, as just pouring in more water doesn't help water around fuel to CIRCULATE and draw off heat. Water is collecting in the drywell from steam out of reactor core which is precipitating back into water. Think this makes the case for valves (which are supposed to be one-way) and pipes of the reactor coolant system being damaged by the high pressure in March. So if there is a bouyant mass of hot steam at the top of the containment vessel, it's pushing down on the water below it, applying more than normal force on the bottom of the containment vessel. NISA talks about their concerns that the mass of water could make the unit more susceptible to EQ's. I believe they specifically mean two things: that the non-design water+steam in the drywell could rupture the bottom of the drywell just from build-up; that an EQ could shift the weight/force during an EQ (think slosh) so that force is more directed at a given point vice evenly distributed. www3.nhk.or.jp
    by marie rich 4/23/2011 4:22:46 PM

  • @marie I found hitachi plans for japanese plants #4 is there but not number 1 ??? docs.google.com
    by elainekirk 4/23/2011 4:26:55 PM

  • AEC-produced video of the SL-1 accident www.youtube.com
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 4:26:59 PM

  • @elainekirk Not a surprise, anymore, eh? They didn't even have back-up plant manuals. They lost what they hade in the tsunami so that even now they've only released their 'best guess' at plant parameters. sheeesh...
    by marie rich 4/23/2011 4:29:14 PM

  • Per the 4/23/2011 #110 Report - Data highlights
    Unit 1 is up t to 1.130 MPa, Unit 2 S/C B is reading 136 Sv/h, Unit 3 D/W A is 15.1 Sv/h B is 11.3 Sv/h. Unit 5 needs more water - it's down to 1544 mm with a temp of 43.5.
    www.meti.go.jp
    by Deirdre 4/23/2011 4:30:48 PM

  • It will be interesting to see, once the weekend is over, what level TEPCOs information has dropped to, but weekends that always take as an opportunity to clam up, except the devastating news, which they release Sunday at 3pm, so it hits the US news at midnight Eastern on Saturday night, which means it never does. Conveniently forgotten as "old news" by Monday morning.
    by radioguy 4/23/2011 4:47:27 PM

  • *"they always take" Scrambling to get out the door to a Common Frequency conference, so I'm not proofreading, it seems.
    by radioguy 4/23/2011 4:49:01 PM

  • it will be tuesday because it is their holiday time isnt it?
    by elainekirk 4/23/2011 5:09:42 PM

  • @elainekirk is that for an ABWR like 6? I thought 4 was an old BWR but a newer "mark" type? I could be wrong why I am asking. :-)
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:14:36 PM

  • One thing that struck me while watching the SL-1 accident video, was that the laughably inadequate (by modern standards) response to this event 50 years ago, was still better than Tepco's.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:16:25 PM

  • @Bobby1 The SL1, I read up on it a bit in March seemed so insanely unsafe today.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:18:09 PM

  • @Nancy The core was exposed to open air, and the control rods were ejected or damaged. Higher ratios of iodine to cesium than otherwise expected were found. I think it is analogous to the #4 situation in some ways.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:24:36 PM

  • Re-reading the SL1 incident. Some of the descriptors of the incident sound like potentials in #3. Two things in the known issues with the BWR Mark 1 that really stuck in my head. 1. the reactor vessel (the metal pod) can propel itself upward like a rocket in a pressure situation. 2. The reactor cap gasket has a rather low failure threshold. It will fail at a fairly low pressure (by comparison) and leak. If somehow melted or destroyed fuel was put into the steam before it escaped in the explosion it could explain the highly radioactive concrete covers.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:25:33 PM

  • And so, if they investigate and conclude that unit 1 can't stand up to more water, then what? They have to continue water and let the sieverts fall where they may, don't they?
    by Scilla 4/23/2011 5:26:17 PM

  • @Bobby1 the "off" iodine/cesium rates? I think someone was bothered by that in various stats. Didn't you also comment on that the other day in the fallout readings? I was reading something this morning about how the boron plates in the SFP can be fragile in some ways. If they were eroded, broken or moved it could be causing issues in 4.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:27:30 PM

  • @Scilla They have screwed this situation so bad, the side effects are becoming worse than the original incident.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:28:07 PM

  • @Nancy Huge amounts of tellurium (and I-132) were found in the air immediately after the explosions (supposedly from ZrTe compounds). In contrast, SL-1 released low amounts of tellurium. But this might have been from #2.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:28:12 PM

  • @Bobby1 all of them did this or just 2? ZrTe is? Sorry, have not had my head deep into researching isotope things. :-)
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:29:15 PM

  • @Nancy Hard to tell, but the Te was released no later than March 15. This indicates concrete interaction.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:30:17 PM

  • @Scilla did you see the image yesterday from physics forum that explained the water table and how things are likely leaking out to sea and percolating up into the soil? If she is right then the entire water table in the region near the plant is likely heavily tainted. Most of it is sinking out to the sea water but with the huge doses the fresh water is likely bad.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:31:28 PM

  • @Bobby1 so fuel or radioactive materials to concrete by the 15th. Does anyone have an event timeline?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:32:11 PM

  • by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:33:15 PM

  • @nancy I just found it and as it was an hitachi doc I thought it worth drawing to your attention I am not able to judge I see a plan and straight away a kitty xray plate jumps into my head
    by elainekirk 4/23/2011 5:36:03 PM

  • @Bobby1 Thanks! I may try to put that into a visual timeline. might help see the event in a graphic form and easier to place minor but important things into the major events time line.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:36:14 PM

  • @Nancy Good idea. And try to figure out if it was #2 or #3 (or both, or even #1), and if the concrete was the cap, floor, or rubble.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:37:41 PM

  • @elainekirk Thanks. I will go back and see if 4 matches the model and mark. I know for sure that 6 is a newer ABWR. Even if it is 6 at the plant it is good contrast from what I am finding. The newer ABWR had lots of fixes from the known flaws of the BWR mark 1 design.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:37:51 PM

  • @Bobby1 I am almost positive the concrete is cap sections. They are about the right size and rough shape. The also came out of the blast plume first like they were shot out of a gun. I am really starting to think they let something catstrophic happen in 3 due to their reluctance to vent that caused 3 to go off like a gun when the hydrogen ignited.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:39:30 PM

  • Marie's research on LOCA events might help tie in a few things on 3.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:40:51 PM

  • @Nancy The cap would have already been a bubbling goop by then.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:41:02 PM

  • @Bobby1 LOL. by the time containment blew? It was sitting above 2 caps.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:41:35 PM

  • @Nancy The Te release would have come from bubbling goop.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:42:32 PM

  • @Bobby1 reaction with concrete in general? I thought it was a by product isotope since you mentioned ZrTe so I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that had something to do with zirconium?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:51:16 PM

  • Are you talking unique to #3 or in multiple reactor instances?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:51:35 PM

  • @Bobby1 How about partially bubbling goop, like the underside starting to? Is that a direct reaction from the radiation, fuel or heat? or all of the above?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:53:05 PM

  • @Nancy Yes, zirconium oxidizing in the presence of water to as high as 5000C. It would have released barium, lanthanum, strontium, cerium, as well as initiate the concrete reaction. I don't know if it is #2 or #3.... the goop would have splattered to other parts of the mix.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:54:18 PM

  • @Bobby1 They have pretty much admitted 2 has melted through or oozed out and the lower containment has breaks letting water out. Were the high readings just at the time frame of the explosions or are they still seeing tellerium indicating concrete reactions?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 5:57:58 PM

  • @Nancy By now, there would little Zr left, so you wouldn't expect much tellurium now. I think this had to occur before the explosions.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 5:59:55 PM

  • @Nancy. yes, I saw that diagram on p-forums, but I didn't digest it. Will look again.
    by Scilla 4/23/2011 6:00:18 PM

  • If I get another lul in things to do I will probably start trying to work on a timeline that can be housed online and maybe group edited?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 6:00:18 PM

  • @Bobby1 so conditions of heat and radioactivity before the explosions? That sounds like more melt down early on than they are admitting? Or would just the insane heat and steam from not venting after losing cooling create enough to be that situation?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 6:01:34 PM

  • @Nancy Yes, I think so... tho thinking about it, it could have happened after the explosions too. The cloud had to travel 100 miles, with unfavorable winds, to be picked up at Takasaki. It sounds like it would take some time to get there by March 15.
    by Bobby1 4/23/2011 6:03:57 PM

  • @Bobby1 I think we also need to go back and re-look at the time of the neutron beams found. With new knowledge we might be able to guess better at the source.
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 6:05:43 PM

  • @bobby, back to #4. You mentioned the info on the SL1 accident. Are you thinking a criticality in the pool might have set it off?
    by Nancy 4/23/2011 6:06:29 PM

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