Japan Earthquake | Page 976

  • @Nancy I agree. I haven't noticed a decrease in levels here in San Diego. If anything they've been increasing slowly..particularly gamma emissions. I know I'll be watching carefully! I just wish they weren't decreasing milk and water sampling to every 3 months...the effects will be ***ulative in our food supply.
    by LM 5/4/2011 4:32:48 PM

  • @fitter, nitrous oxide, aka laughing gas, is used to supplement oxygen in rocket engines. It seems to work like oxygen at higher temps. Probably, it also corrodes the tanks.
    by Peter Melzer 5/4/2011 4:40:35 PM

  • I think it is time governments realised they are servants of the people and in the absence of popular support due to suppression of information the best method I have found is carefully worded freedom of info requests, finding any state laws etc that are relevant and can be quoted helps. I think due to the fondness of politicians for legislation there are going to be guidance laws/docs regarding the monitoring of radiation and what needs additional monitoring if levels of x in air samples equal y etc etc .
    Hanging politicians by their own lanyards can be most effective
    by elainekirk 5/4/2011 4:41:43 PM

  • www.tepco.co.jp
    @nancy new pic :) just had to post it here due to my utter awe of the being (whatever it may be) www.tepco.co.jp

    by elainekirk via Tepco.co.jp 5/4/2011 4:44:56 PM

  • @Peter Melzer Thats the part confusing me.... I used to install a lot of "lauging gas", how does it go from that to being "like an accelerant" ???? do you see any coralation to "pressure" the sludge reciver is drawn as a flat top tank, not a pressure vessel... ?????
    by fitter 5/4/2011 4:45:09 PM

  • @elainekirk looks like the bolting machine for reator or containment lid... I call it the spider machine in her pic's
    by fitter 5/4/2011 4:46:38 PM

  • @Fitter --By itself, at standard temperature and pressure, nitrous oxide is stable. If you have something going on that has elevated the temperature, however, the nitrous oxide decomposes, exothermically (generates heat when it separates), and the now free O can then add to the fire/explosion. Here's a short article -- just look at the second paragraph, and then later, the section called Reactivity: docs.google.com
    by Markfm edited by Markfm 5/4/2011 4:50:55 PM

  • @fitter Still talking about the oxides of nitrogen I see. Ok here's the low down on that. Nitrogen is only a semi-inert gas, it does form oxides but has to have an input of energy to do so. The energy can be in many forms, could be sunlight, the cylinder of an internal combustion engine, or any form of energy that forces the formation of that compound. It is an endothermic reaction meaning that it requires energy foe its formation--it is "up the hill". Once these types of compounds are formed, they are relatively unstable and break down with a release of energy--"down the hill". This is the reason why many compounds of nitrogen are good explosives.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 4:53:05 PM

  • @elainekirk Cool! That is the reactor cap with the big machine they use to make sure they get it tightened down properly. Oh btw, someone sent me 2 documents about the EQ studies and retrofit. Both are in Japanese and won't go through google translate as a document. They will take a bit to translate bit by bit. Hope to get to them tonight. Supposedly the one doc outlines all the work done(not much). The other is the EQ tests.
    by Nancy 5/4/2011 4:53:06 PM

  • @LM sounds like something we should push congress on.
    by Nancy 5/4/2011 4:54:22 PM

  • @Nancy woweee @bo would get them translated for you maybe?
    by elainekirk 5/4/2011 4:54:35 PM

  • @Markfm @Jim Carver thanks air products is one of my vendeos...
    by fitter 5/4/2011 4:55:09 PM

  • @elainekirk I think you should post the spider mach link, it has a lot of the info on the equipment used to do the maintaince work.. It may help people understand how some of it is done.. good find
    by fitter 5/4/2011 4:56:36 PM

  • From the Safetygram (the link), about nitrous oxide, "Nitrous oxide is nonflammable, but is an oxidizer that can cause or intensify fires. At elevated temperatures, nitrous oxide decomposes. The decomposition reaction is exothermic" ... "The tendency for decomposition increases as temperature, pressure and energy input increase,"
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 4:56:43 PM

  • @Nancy I am going to write to my representatives today. The reactors are still spewing and are not out of the woods. This is not the time to draw down and you're right...we need to say something.
    by LM 5/4/2011 4:58:12 PM

  • @Markfm I would relate this to being a oxgen enriched enviroment...(not correct chemicaly) but same theroy and outcome?????
    by fitter 5/4/2011 4:58:18 PM

  • From the EPA: "In accordance with normal RadNet protocol, EPA will be analyzing milk and drinking water samples on a quarterly basis and precipitation samples as part of a monthly composite. The next round of milk and drinking water sampling will take place in approximately three months."

    (???!!!)
    by radioguy 5/4/2011 4:58:32 PM

  • Yes, it adds to the explosion, once something has already started -- another source of heat plus more oxygen. (JC, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 4:59:35 PM

  • @Markfm Everything correct except the article stated pressure. Pressure increases stability.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:00:57 PM

  • That's why I included the source reference -- overall I found the Safetygram pretty decent reading, barring that error.
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 5:03:03 PM

  • @Markfm now that you understand my interest in nitous oxide.. what is your opionion of the sludge reciver tank and equipment emitting and possibly contributing to the enviromet in the compartment were they sit... do you think that lack of venting ablities.... and would it be both hydrogen and nitrous ????
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:04:05 PM

  • @jim also
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:04:29 PM

  • @elainekirk both can go through google translate as long as I cut and paste bit by bit. It will just take a bit of time to reassemble the document.
    by Nancy 5/4/2011 5:04:50 PM

  • @fitter I really don't know their plan well enough to comment right now.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:06:02 PM

  • @Jim Carver I was refering to the pre-explosion... there seems to be plenty of Venting abilites now.... they self vent to the outside... (except for builing two)
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:07:47 PM

  • @Jim Carver were would you look to try and find a formula of what is needed to be know to determine ... the amout of gas and what gases would come from the sludge reciver and how long it would take to create an explosive astmp.
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:10:13 PM

  • I know squat about chemical compound formation, the "how" of getting nitrous oxide. I'm just a thick-headed systems engineer.
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 5:10:22 PM

  • @fitter Absolutely could have been an accelerant, that's why I questioned the use of it in cooling the reactor chamber instead of using argon. Dean said normal practice was to use argon and helium.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:10:24 PM

  • @Markfm what type of systems
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:11:13 PM

  • Electronic surveillance primarily, years of comms, cameras, radars, computers, many oddball sensors.
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 5:12:21 PM

  • @Jim Carver i need to get nancys pic enlarged... I firmly believe some of the systems in the water systems ...... have left the buildings... but can not identifie the tanks if have found outside
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:12:38 PM

  • @Markfm sound intersting field
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:13:12 PM

  • @fitter There are a suite of oxides formed and that's why they are referred to as NOX , the reactions depend on TP variables and the amount of catalytic compounds present.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:13:51 PM

  • Pays the bills, beats doing real work.
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 5:13:59 PM

  • @Jim Carver did'nt understand that either except argon is muchmore expencive and I don't know how much harder to produce
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:14:36 PM

  • @Jim Carver the oxides being the "common thread" in these gas... would that be somewhat correct
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:15:53 PM

  • @fitter Produced by the fractional distrillation of air. Used in the welding trades, composes 1% of the atmoshere and should be widely available.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:16:15 PM

  • @fitter yes along with other nitrides that could be unstable.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:17:20 PM

  • mark/jim gotta run to get the vendors paid or I won't get my argon delivered.... but we pay much more for argon than nitrogen.... but it produces a better weld with less flaws..
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:17:24 PM

  • I still haven't seen anything discussing nitrogen and cooling. All references I saw were related to trying to "safe" the containment buildings by adding nitrogen to inert the air in them. They use nitrogen injection on supertankers, in the holds, which is probably why it came up -- probably not hard to get access to one of those units.
    by Markfm 5/4/2011 5:17:53 PM

  • thank bbl
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:17:55 PM

  • @Markfm I think they were just being cheap as usual, just a cheap way to dilute the atmosphere inside the reactor. Guess it worked, they haven't blow up yet.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:20:06 PM

  • @Markfm they use nitrogen to pressure test so they may have had onsite.
    by Nancy 5/4/2011 5:33:32 PM

  • CO2 is pretty darn stable.
    by Jim Carver 5/4/2011 5:34:52 PM

  • @Jim Carver does it also have cooling properties or does it have to be highly pressurized
    by fitter 5/4/2011 5:37:17 PM

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