Japan Earthquake | Page 1063

  • RBeaner .. I will retrieve data to support my claims .. will take bit of time
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:22:19 PM

  • Nancy.. it's unique to the type of reactor.. and the one I found was for a BWR-4
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:23:36 PM

  • @dean if you can give me the one for the BWR-4 or the location where you found it I might be able to track down one for a BWR mark 1.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 1:24:22 PM

  • RBeaner, i would be interested to see data to support your hypothesis that the reactor scrammed exactly like it was susposed to for all systems...would be good comparison..
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:24:55 PM

  • I will get it Nancy and then I have to drive back home..
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:25:07 PM

  • by dean 5/9/2011 1:26:07 PM

  • perhaps RBeaners approach is the most optimistic start.. assume every thing worked right.. until we find evidence to the contrary.. good point
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:27:11 PM

  • The Daiichi power plant shut down automatically after the 9.0-magnitude earthquake hit (recently updated from 8.9), but the cores of its four [there are actually six in total, but three had been shut down] reactors still require cooling to prevent a meltdown. The cooling is normally provided by water that is pumped into the core using electricity. The earthquake cut off electricity needed to drive water pumps, and then backup diesel generators failed, likely as the result of the tsunami triggered by the earthquake. Although details are difficult to confirm, it appears that another cooling system that uses batteries and steam-driven pumps also failed, and a heat exchange system that removes heat from the water coolant around the reactor seemed to be damaged, says Andrew Kadak, a research affiliate at MIT. A key next step is to repair or replace the heat exchanger system to provide a way to remove heat from the seawater. This will eliminate the need to vent steam, which contains radioactive materials, into the atmosphere.

    The reactors at the nuclear plant, built in the early 1970s, rely on active cooling systems that require electricity. Newer plant designs would lessen or eliminate the need for active cooling, making use of natural convection or a "gravity feed" system to cool reactors in the event of an emergency. "We shouldn't lose sight of the enormity of the earthquake and flood," he says. "Nuclear power plants are designed for earthquakes and hurricanes, and in some places tsunamis. But these were unbelievably large." www.technologyreview.com
    by Tenzing 5/9/2011 1:27:45 PM

  • @Jim It was sited as Indurated Shale at 17 meter www.iitk.ac.in Which is good stuff, but not like New York City Bedrock
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 1:29:20 PM

  • Something that is an additional factor of concern is that the building that units 1-4 are are identical to units 1-2 at Hamaoka. Those where shut down because Chubu decided the retrofits were too expensive. It was cheaper to build a new higher power NPP, it was easily in the double digit billions. Some of the things mentioned in the article that I now can't find were roof braces to dampen upper building swaying. Chubu cited the tall skinny upper building and the offset reactor well in that upper building as being very prone to lots of lateral swaying in a quake.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 1:29:49 PM

  • very good Tenzing.. now we're going some where ..
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:33:50 PM

  • Nancy.. in that technical safety requirements documents .. do a search for scram and it shows many many things that will be Germain to our discussion
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:34:34 PM

  • ALSO.. do a search for BWR SEISMIC SCRAM RECOVERY .. and LIMITED CONDITIONS FOR OPERATIONS (LCO) FOR SEISMIC and SCRAM... I will pick this up once I return home.. in about 4 hours of travel... see you all then... good searching.. I really like it when Nancy and others pick something to recreate and then every one goes for it... .
    by dean 5/9/2011 1:36:50 PM

  • NEW CTBTO Takasaski radioisotope report www.cpdnp.jp
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 1:37:00 PM

  • @dean Really my opinion on proper scram is based on TEPCO word and the data, or lack thereof, to the contrary. I am relatively impressed with the seismicity report on #6 reacter, that safety margins and over-engineering might be sufficient to protect plant vitals through the quake. They engineered for a quake, though one not really big enough. Quakes are a relative thing, eaasy to over build or over-engineer. A wave on the other hand is a physical height fact. If the wall isn't high enough, it is obvious at too late a time. We know there is a lot of wiggle room in materials engineering. If you need a material that will withstand (for ex. 600 deg) and your choices are one for 650 or 750 or even 1000 deg. , yor choice will be a cost benefit analysis and may result in the 750 or 1000 just "because" availability and/or cost.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 1:37:33 PM

  • @Tenzing good catch! I think we can start building a list of known potential factors to see where we get on this.

    @dean, yes, this info has the potential to make a big impact on things.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 1:42:27 PM

  • higher than expected radiation inside #1 may hamper work efforts news.xinhuanet.com
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 1:54:46 PM

  • @Nancy Nothing personal, but here is one sentence from that report "TEPCO said that as 10 to 70 millisieverts per hour were detected in areas where workers would be expected to spend prolonged periods of time inside of the No. 1 reactor, restoration work is possible." Is it possible or impossible? In the business, we talk about "contact Readings" and "General Area Readings". This article gives a range of 10mSV/hr (totallyy workable with controls) to 70 (I think supposed to be 700) mSv/hr, pretty much unworkable if have to stay there for any length of time. My point is the info we are getting is so distilled (in english anyways) and so confused (to me) in Japonese as to be useless to evaluate. We simply must rely on the actual data provided by TEPCO because at least we are looking at the numbers they are looking at. "higher than expected radiation inside #1 may hamper work efforts " may be true, but the info is not sufficient to really believe that, I've worked in 10-50 mSv/hr succesfully in the past, and spot areas of 100 mSv/hr (not 700 mSv/hr though). It requires rigorous monitoring and control of work, nothing more.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:08:23 PM

  • @RBeaner This article sites 700 millisieverts..... www3.nhk.or.jp
    by LM 5/9/2011 2:11:08 PM

  • @RBeaner just passing on the news article, made no claims about it. :-)
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:11:26 PM

  • @Nancy Ever seen an aircraft carrier flight deck in max operation? Very dangerous place to be! But with proper controls and monitoring in place, it operates at high rate for months at time safely. Same idea as radiological work. Can be done safely with proper controls.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:12:10 PM

  • @RBeaner of course. Everything works fine until it stops working fine. The big factor is what happens when it stops working as intended. Yes, I really need more coffee this morning.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:13:20 PM

  • @Nancy The point wasn't you Nancy, au contraire... Great job to you and everyone contributing here... The point was the quality of information. It is in decline, but we must use that which is available to us.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:13:55 PM

  • The new Takasaki data indicates that the iodine/cesium ratio has increased. This means new fission between April 24 - May 4. The last data point is 4 days before the May 8 "high-density" radioactivity release.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:16:38 PM

  • @Nancy The Physics of the plant are complicated and not understood by most workers, me included. I have a basic understanding of what adds Reactivity (power) to the core, but the control of the exposure to workers is well understood. My point is that adequate controls can be implemented for these workers to safely take restorative actions in "most" radiological enviornments, not all.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:18:52 PM

  • @RBeaner the article even explained that. Sounded like they were going to use some lead shielding to allow them to be in some of the areas with higher readings without getting large doses.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:20:45 PM

  • Over 900 tons of radioactive sludge from Fukushima sold for cement www.desdemonadespair.net
    by Debra Beckham 5/9/2011 2:26:53 PM

  • @LM A while back they were showing detailed pics (video) of the installed (HEPA) air filtration system. On every one of them were these white herculite (plastic like) things about 2 ft by 3 ft, those were what is called lead bats. They are filled with lead wool for shielding purposes (gamma radiation). It shows they are thinking a bit at this point. Those HEPA filters WILL become highly radioactive (and emit high radiation) during and after use, but not before. They planned for those high Radiation readings at the start, not later. It is a small thing, but shows they are (at least) becoming pro-active vice re-active)
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:27:08 PM

  • Expect elevated levels of Iodine-131 to enter the west coast tomorrow, from Vancouver BC to Los Angeles, expanding into the Rockies and northern plains by Wednesday.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:31:34 PM

  • @RBeaner I get the impression from a few different things that the technicians and engineers are more able to "run the show" at least as far as the work at the plant rather than the corporate office trying to run things based on the wrong reasons. There was a mention a few weeks ago that govt. officials would have a larger role. The interview of one of the main engineers explained how he had to really prove his case to get TEPCO to approve his plan to build some temporary tsunami wall improvements. He felt it was critical to protect that area around 3 and 4 from another tsunami wave but had to jump through hoops to get the corporate office to approve. The suspected dynamic of TEPCO corporate office thinking one way and the actual technical people another seems to be playing out.
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:32:04 PM

  • @Bobby1 have you looked to see if the EPA still has some box filters along those areas so we can see what blows in?
    by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:32:40 PM

  • @Nancy We used shielding all the time to reduce radiation exposure. It does NOT reduce radioactivity exposure. They put the ventilation in to reduce the radioactivity in the air (like dust) so as to reduce possible INTERNAL exposure. Not general radiation exposure (though it helps a little). They went in with SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus) innitially. They are nearly 100% effective against airborne contaminates, but they want to use respiraters (gas masks). The gas mask is easier to use, but "only" drops the radioactivity by a factor of 1000. Hence the need for air filtration.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:33:23 PM

  • @Nancy I haven't checked since they announced they were suspending operations. The Radnet network is still working for some areas, and they might give a vague idea of what is happening.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:34:00 PM

  • @Bobby1 Come on, where is your source? We are trying to damp down baseless speculation at this point. "Expect elevated levels of Iodine-131 to enter the west coast tomorrow, from Vancouver BC to Los Angeles, expanding into the Rockies and northern plains by Wednesday". There have been no significant, long term depositions of radioactive material in the US. IF things continue in Japan the way they are going now, There WILL be no significant depositions in the US.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:38:53 PM

  • @RBeaner True. It just makes me wonder what the levels were before they claimed that the radiation had come down after their filtration.
    by LM 5/9/2011 2:39:06 PM

  • @RBeaner "Groundless rumors"? Do you work for the Japanese government? Read my posts before that.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:42:02 PM

  • @RBeaner What is your criteria for "significant depositions"? There is no safe dose of radiation.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:44:06 PM

  • @LM The air monitoring is still in effect by EPA oaspub.epa.gov and Berkely is still doing monitoring www.nuc.berkeley.edu and both were in steady decline. I admit, I am still concerned about fish, eventually, but not right now. Ijust saw your latest post Show me the source for your new elevated I-131 level please.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:44:17 PM

  • @RBeaner 1. April 29 a spike in radioactivity in reactor #3.
    2. Takasaki data shows an increase in iodine/cesium ratio, indicating new fission.
    3. A high-density radioactivity release said will occur on May 8.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:46:32 PM

  • @Bobby1 And there is no safe car speed. All life has risks. I am not claiming there is a safe dose, just that it must be taken into account with daily risks. Your attitude may have been appropriate before a nuclear accident and also after, but we are in the midst of a nuclear accident, and IMHO more reasonable approaches must prevail.
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:46:52 PM

  • @RBeaner 4. Huge amounts of smoke seen from #3 on May 8.
    5. Wind and pressure analysis indicates arrival of radionuclides in the US on Tuesday.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:47:37 PM

  • @RBeaner The NRC has declared a state of emergency.
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:48:19 PM

  • @Bobby1 What are you talking about..."The NRC has declared a state of emergency".
    by RBeaner 5/9/2011 2:49:19 PM

  • by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:50:19 PM

  • @RBeaner So what is your reasoning that there is no danger?
    by Bobby1 5/9/2011 2:50:36 PM

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