Good news but I would want some sort of reliable data on their water supply and testing before I drank their beer. online.wsj.com
by Nancy 5/9/2011 2:53:42 PM
Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't consume anything from Fukushima Prefecture and would certainly think twice about the surrounding prefectures as well.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:01:08 PM
@Bobby1 OK so I looked at this "NRC Emergency" thing, blogs.forbes.com and it looks like a beaurocratic buffaloism (power grab), nothing to do with "Expect elevated levels of Iodine-131 to enter the west coast tomorrow, from Vancouver BC to Los Angeles, expanding into the Rockies and northern plains by Wednesday". My reasoning that there is no "significant" danger is BEIR 1, 2 and 3. I believe the peer reviewed scientific studies. There is slight danger, slight elevated risk of cancer. The disspersion continent or world wide pretty much prevents YOU as an individual, from mitigating that slight increase. But, it is slight.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:02:05 PM
@LM two worries, one that the water is not contaminated, the other being general residual radiation on or in the can. Can aluminum absorb the types of radiation that make it outside the plant?
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:02:35 PM
@Debra Beckham Just to put that into context, building materials in general have a level of radiation that is typically measured in thousands of becquerels per kilogram. Wood, concrete, and granite emit a couple of thousand becquerels per kilogram mostly from natural potassium. Natural potassium emits about 30,000 Becquerel per kilogram. Concrete can be much higher when it uses ash or slag from coal-fired plants, one of the greatest man-made sources of radiation in our environment. These figures are definitely higher than normal, but in those units nature sounds scary too.
by Martin 5/9/2011 3:04:46 PM
@RBeaner We wouldn't be having this discussion, if the US government would behave like a rational entity, and test all supplies of water and milk, as well as releasing air concentration data.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:05:17 PM
@Bobby1 the NRC Emergency status was declared on March 11 immediately it was clear that Fukushima was in big trouble.
by hudebnik 5/9/2011 3:05:25 PM
@Nancy I agree..good questions. Unfortunately, If I were living in Japan I would not feel comforted by the lack of vetted information. Taking Tepco at face value is laughable given their track record. Vigorous unaffiliated testing would need to be done before I ate or drank anything from that area.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:06:36 PM
@LM I too would be a very Unhappy camper if I was in Fukushima, but I am in the US. The dispersion and dilution has had its great effect before the radioactivity got here. I am not minimizing the radioactivity released in Fuku, or its health effects, I pray for the people of Japan that have to deal with these Significantly increased radiation levels. But I am in the US and noone here has to worry about it....yet.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:06:37 PM
@hudebnik The emergency status still applies AFAIK. The NRC supercedes the EPA and all other agencies in releasing radiation data as long as this status is in effect.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:07:31 PM
@RBeaner 'Yet' is the operative word. I won't feel truly safe until there's a cap on releases. That hasn't happened yet and the increased cancer statistics will rise as the releases continue to acumulate.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:09:47 PM
@Bobby1 - indeed it is still in force but it is a bit misleading to post "The NRC has declared a state of emergency" without qualification.
by hudebnik 5/9/2011 3:10:09 PM
At Chernobyl, hotspots with 50 times the radiation of the mean in an area were routinely observed. This means, whatever one thinks the radiation status is in his area, it is likely that SOMEBODY nearby will be in a hotspot.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:11:30 PM
@RBeaner It would behoove the GoJ to let outside organizations who have NO nuclear vested interests to get in there and independently monitor. Their credibility is greatly questioned!
by LM 5/9/2011 3:12:11 PM
@hudebnik How can the NRC chairman assume emergency status without a state of emergency? That would be fraud.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:13:45 PM
@Bobby1 - well I'm not qualified to opine on the NRC Chairman's powers, but I'd suggest that he did, very early, judge that a major nuclear emergency at occurred at Fukushima and that it might well affect the USA. His call was well in advance, if I remember correctly, of the true gravity of the Fukushima situation being admitted by TEPCO.
by hudebnik 5/9/2011 3:16:52 PM
@RBeaner I don't presume to speak for everyone here.....but the only reason I'm still lurking and de-lurking here is because this is NOT over. We are all here because we are concerned and interested. I appreciate the half-full attitude but sometimes a healthy dose of skepticism and vigilance is necessary. I think this is one of those times.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:19:18 PM
@Nancy
Alot of beer is made from distilled water, I'm sure they have a plan to remove any possibility of radioactivity. LOL
Your other point on the engineers vs. technicians. Often, as with most jobs, the lower level people have a good understanding of their job. Their job is usually less complicated. (Put the white paper in the blue bin and the plastics in the red bin type stuff..:-) That's not to denigrate them, it is just a simplified mental job. Reactor Physics is complicated, especially with added chemical complcations, and is prone to possible Unexpected Consequences in an emergency.
Radiological or Radiaton Controls are implemented at the site by trained professionals. I am NOT vouching for what TEPCO Has done since 3/11, just the norm. It is straight forward, survey, shielding and stay time for the workers. It is uncomplicated and easy to compute. It is done all the time within safety and regulatory requiements.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:22:54 PM
@Nancy, I was away when you had the discussion on the potential quake damage and scramming. Remember according to this man's thinking laid out here: www.ustream.tv (beginning at 10:00 into the vid) crucial recirculation pipes may have been broken by THE QUAKE. He suspects vulnerable spots in the piping. If he is correct, emergency cooling would have been compromised even without a loss of electricity because of the tsumami.
by Peter Melzer 5/9/2011 3:24:25 PM
@RBeaner Given the number of food recalls in this country these days, excuse me if I don't feel comforted by the reassurance that all is done within safety regulations. I hardly think it's any different in Japan!
by LM 5/9/2011 3:27:50 PM
@Peter Melzer That may be his thinking, but where is the data to support it?
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:28:20 PM
@RBeaner that is what I am digging for, the data to back that up.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:28:48 PM
@LM Bo has commented that people in Japan are not getting any useful information or real assurances that food is being inspected for safety right now.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:29:40 PM
@LM I agree with and wrote the "yet". I don't believe this is over. Things could still go horribly bad. Every day without a disater reduces the power level/decay heat involved.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:30:24 PM
@RBeaner I am talking PR, execs and lawyers vs. the staff with the real technical knowledge. The head engineer was explaining how he had to convince the non-technical people at corporate in order to do a needed technical safety fix.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:31:02 PM
@Nancy That's exactly what I suspected. it wouldn't be very different here. We definitely need to be our own self-advocates. That's why I'm here.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:31:26 PM
@Nancy Beef has been shipped from high-radiation areas, fishing is allowed in areas that are probably contaminated, cement has been made from radioactive sludge and shipped. And the Japan gov't wonders why other countries have banned imports of their products.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:31:48 PM
@RBeaner, listen to what he says in the vid. He does not elaborate on the weak spots. Perhaps he could be asked.
by Peter Melzer 5/9/2011 3:32:10 PM
@Martin Where did you come up with " building materials in general have a level of radiation that is typically measured in thousands of becquerels per kilogram. Wood, concrete, and granite emit a couple of thousand becquerels per kilogram mostly from natural potassium." please cite a source. Potassium (raduia=oactive) is naturally occuring everywhere) , but where did you get these numbers from?
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:33:25 PM
@LM I wholeheartedly agree with this. " It would behoove the GoJ to let outside organizations who have NO nuclear vested interests to get in there and independently monitor. Their credibility is greatly questioned!" Independent verification is kind of like market (capitalist) competition. Maybe you thoguht me some kind of TEPCO sympathizer, but no, I just don't agree with whacky, unscientific, non-peer reviewed assessments of the situation.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:38:48 PM
Sorry if I got a little emotional with my responses...a biologist by training I do feel that there are no safe levels of radiation. There is a lot we don't know about it's effects on the body..in particular fetuses and young children. We are exposed to small doses of radiation on a daily basis already but not gammas from nuclear fission. I believe that all the statements that everything is well below concern is total crap. We don't really know the full effects!
by LM 5/9/2011 3:40:44 PM
@LM There is no reason for the existence of this board without the posters being self-advocates. @RBeaner Rational estimates based on scientific principles are not whacky. Blind dismissal of radiation hazards are not only whacky, but criminal.
by Bobby1 5/9/2011 3:40:47 PM
@RBeaner Thanks for that. I just can't stomach the bs anymore.
by LM 5/9/2011 3:43:21 PM
@Bobby1 The whole quote was " I just don't agree with whacky, unscientific, non-peer reviewed assessments of the situation." Focus, for me is on the NON-PEER reviewed assesments.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 3:46:24 PM
@Bobby1 That's why I'm still here. All of you are self-advocating and hopefully helping the Japanese at some level. I admire all of you!
by LM 5/9/2011 3:46:28 PM
People have been trying to build a set of information to factually understand the implications of the radiation releases. Part of that process is discussing it here. There will be some good discoveries and probably a few "misses" as we dig through information. Taking one set of information and calling it a day going either direction isn't a good process. So my take is that the exploration should continue. We all should try to document and fact check everything we find with a bit of skepticism and assure that the sources facts meet up.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:48:42 PM
@Nancy Bravo!
by LM 5/9/2011 3:49:57 PM
@Nancy - Seconded!
by hudebnik 5/9/2011 3:50:22 PM
@LM we may or may not see significant levels in the US. I worry more about the ongoing build up of longer life isotopes and we need to track those things to know one way or another. I find the EPA/FDA declaration that they don't need to test Pacific seafood because a model someone built declared it a non-issue to be criminal. There is enough known factors and so many unknown factors that they should begin testing seafood in the near term to assure consumer confidence and in the longer term to see if we do end up with concentrations in larger higher up the food chain seafood like Salmon or some of the big Pacific fish.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:51:18 PM
>...I too would be a very Unhappy camper if I was in Fukushima, but I am in the US. The >dispersion and dilution has had its great effect before the radioactivity got here. I am not >minimizing the radioactivity released in Fuku, or its health effects, I pray for the people of >Japan that have to deal with these Significantly increased radiation levels. But I am in the >US and noone here has to worry about it....yet. Dispersion, yes. But there isn't any accounted dilution to radiological materials that I know.
by estacion 5/9/2011 3:52:14 PM
@Nancy We can't wait for peer review. With data sources being closed down, we must use scientific knowledge and common sense to come up with an accurate estimate of the situation. It is unethical and immoral to not do this.
All living organisms are connected to each other through a food chain. It takes more organisms in the beginning of a food chain to support a smaller number of organisms at the end of the chain. Where bioaccumulation refers to how pollutants enter a food chain; biomagnification refers to the tendency of pollutants to concentrate as they move from one trophic level to the next, up the “food chain.” lucaswhitefieldhixson.com
by Majjham Zazen 5/9/2011 3:55:11 PM
@Bobby1 gather the info, then we also need to determine or find someone with the deeper understanding to help interpret. A good example is the MIT article released today that talked about ongoing chain reactions and how the ratios of isotopes explained the evidence this is still going on. It gets to be complicated technique where we either need to learn the complexities of interpreting that info or find someone willing to look at it and give opinion. But you have to gather that data first.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 3:57:11 PM
@Nancy I completely agree. I frankly haven't made any changes to my daily habits..I already drink filtered water...but I would think twice before eating fish that wasn't tested and until Japan uses some outside sources for testing I would frankly avoid products from Fukushima and surrounding prefectures. If I were 20 years younger, pregnant or both I would be more concerned here in the US. I'm not convinced that certain learning disorders worldwide might not be connected to Chernobyl long lasting isotopes. There's just too much we don't know.