Japan Earthquake | Page 1134

  • @radioguy so it isn't public edit? That was my worry
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:00:44 PM

  • @radioguy Cool.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:00:53 PM

  • @lillymunster I would imagine it does. Makes the leaking water even more scary.
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:01:00 PM

  • I'm not sure they weren't rather spotty about listing SFP and routine injections.
    by radioguy 5/12/2011 6:01:47 PM

  • @LM imagine and know are two different things. If that is being vaporized into steam that is a major health risk. We need to either find out or find a chemist who can tell us
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:01:49 PM

  • @lillymunster You are correct. I'll see what I can dig up.
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:02:43 PM

  • @LM Well, then imagine how much hydrazine is released every time we send a rocket to space.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:04:45 PM

  • @Pedro Jesus hmm. I remember reading something about a rocket fuel component that was thought to be causing thyroid disease in areas near rocket testing facilities etc. where that is used. Might be work looking into. If that gets into a vapor it could be yet another health issue people need to be aware of. Need more info to understand it though.
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:07:28 PM

  • @Nancy From the same article..........In 1-year chronic inhalation studies on hydrazine at concentrations of 0, 0.06, 0.3, 1.3, or 6.5 mg/m3, there were significantly increased incidences of nasal and bronchial tumours (adenomas, adenocarcinomas and carcinomas) in rats of both sexes, thyroid tumours in male rats, and nasal tumours in hamsters at 1.3 and/or 6.5 mg/m3. There was an increased incidence of lung adenomas in female mice at 1.3 mg/m3(MacEwen et al. 1981; Vernot et al. 1985). In chronic oral studies, there was an increased incidence of lung tumours in mice of both sexes treated with hydrazine at a dose of 1.87 mg/kg bw/day (Roe et al. 1967; Toth 1969; Toth 1972). There were no oral carcinogenicity studies identified in rats. However, in a drinking water carcinogenicity study the hydrated form of hydrazine was noted to induce liver tumours in both male and female rats (Steinhoff and Mohr 1988).
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:07:41 PM

  • @lillymunster @Pedro It is in fact a problem with jet fuel and the article I posted mentions it. Given that the SFPs aren't contained I believe it will definitely add to the health issues.
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:10:25 PM

  • @LM I would say that is worth investigating. Do you want to start documenting what you find and then bring it back here, for discussion and review. If this is a real risk we need to let the media get wind of this. Another factor would be how far can it travel? If it is mostly landing right at the plant, the place is already a toxic mess. If it is going further away it is another risk to the local populations and possibly fish??
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:12:31 PM

  • Hard to tell if the hydrazine would really add much toxicity to the soup -- relatively small amounts 0.25 - 1% by volume, likely far more issue with the radioactive glop contamination in the water compared to the hydrazine.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:12:44 PM

  • @Markfm that would matter also, is it enough to cause a risk?
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:14:39 PM

  • @LM Also worth checking the use of hydrazine in pharmaceuticals and pesticides.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:14:43 PM

  • Writeup on hydrazine chronic toxicity: oehha.ca.gov (just a data point for people to look at)
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:15:43 PM

  • seems like the hydrazine is low composte with regard to effect www.atsdr.csounds sdc.gov
    by RBeaner edited by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:17:13 PM

  • @lillymunster Hydrazine is/will be a local issue, relatively short lived .."What happens to hydrazines when they enter the environment?
    Hydrazines can be released into the environment during their production or use, or from accidental spills.
    Hydrazines easily evaporate to the air, where they are broken down by reactions within minutes or hours.
    Hydrazines can also dissolve in water, where they usually break down into less toxic compounds within a few weeks.
    Hydrazines may build up in some fish living in contaminated water, but are not expected to remain at high levels over long periods of time.
    In soil, hydrazines may stick to particles and be changed within a few days to less harmful compounds.
    by RBeaner 5/12/2011 6:19:46 PM

  • @LM I'm not sure if they use it in jet fuel, I only know about rocket fuel, pharms to fight tuberculosis and pesticides. This use of hydrazine in Fukushima is negligible when compared to all the other applications where it is used. Think pesticides, for example.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:19:55 PM

  • RBeaner, good link.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:20:12 PM

  • Also, hydrazine becomes inert when dissolved in water. It is being used to lower concentration of oxygen.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:21:59 PM

  • @RBeaner sounds like unless high concentrations make it out of the area in the ocean is it a fairly low issue
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:22:10 PM

  • @Nancy It does bioaccumulate in fish.
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:23:32 PM

  • @LM back to the concentrations thing
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:24:29 PM

  • They have been injecting it dissolved in water, not spraying it, so I guess the biological impact at Fukushima will be extremely low.
    by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 6:24:54 PM

  • But hydrazines aren't expected to stay at high concentrations in fish for long periods. Likely anything close enough to build up a significant hydrazine load is already off-limits due to uptake of radioactivity.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:25:04 PM

  • Good question, though, worth looking at.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:25:27 PM

  • @LM For relatively short periods of time, but is still a powerful toxin but it is important here in that it Scavenges Oxygen from the water, to reduce corrosion, what with all the salt added via salt water.
    by RBeaner 5/12/2011 6:26:04 PM

  • Basically, if the fish is taking up enough hydrazine to be of concern, the uptake of Cesium and Iodine is likely to overwhelm the hydrazine in terms of problem severity, and duration of trouble.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:29:27 PM

  • @LM not unlike when lead was dropped on Chernobyl, some of which then became airborne as fumes and caused a variety of health problems in the area on top of the radiation... There probably aren't many environmentally benign options available to them
    by jay 5/12/2011 6:29:51 PM

  • The low distribution ratio of hydrazine means that it does not travel far from reactor. rs6.eporia.com
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:31:21 PM

  • It is possible that hydrazine can react with iodine-131 to form hydriodic acid, which is itself toxic.
    by Bobby1 5/12/2011 6:31:22 PM

  • @Bobby1 uh,source for that?
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:32:10 PM

  • @Markfm I don't know that, but it sounds reasonable. The amount of hydrazine injection seemed low, but I have no factual data point, anyone...How much hydrazine has been injected?
    by RBeaner 5/12/2011 6:32:55 PM

  • @jay it really is an odds game, how bad is the increased problems vs. the benefit obtained.
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:32:58 PM

  • @Jay They really don't have too many options and I'm sure this is the lesser of evils. It's just one more potential poison for the people of Fukushima.
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:33:45 PM

  • I would definitely want my fish monitored for everything though!
    by LM 5/12/2011 6:35:06 PM

  • @RBeaner that is really what we need to know before getting too concerned I would think.
    @LM they need to be monitoring Pacific fish anyways, IMHO.
    by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:35:35 PM

  • I get a handful of hits in the NISA reports, they're generally on the order of: Fresh water to the spent fuel pool coolant purification system using a fuel pool (about 80t) injection (5 月 9 日 12:14~15:00)(12:39~14:36 にヒドラジン約 0.5m May 9, 12:14 to 15:00) (12:39 to 14:36 ​​to about 0.5m hydrazine
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:35:46 PM

  • The below sounds like 1 part hydrazine to 160 parts water.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:36:39 PM

  • by Bobby1 edited by lillymunster 5/12/2011 6:38:43 PM

  • One other instance was about 2% (1.2 m hydrazine with 56 tons water), and a third case was 0.23 m3 hydrazine with 100 tons water.
    by Markfm edited by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:38:47 PM

  • My reference is: translate.google.com just doing a Find on the word hydrazine.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:39:42 PM

  • In a casualty such as this, there are only Hobson's choice (take it or leave it, by the responsible engineering group) and Dilemma's choice "Between a rock and a hard place" they must take the best chemical actions they have available.
    by RBeaner 5/12/2011 6:39:55 PM

  • Unfortunately they lack a Capt. Kirk, no such thing as a Kobayashi Maru approach.
    by Markfm 5/12/2011 6:43:28 PM

  • Closure of Japanese plant casts doubt on viability of Sellafield's Mox operation www.independent.co.uk
    by UKVal 5/12/2011 6:44:43 PM

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