Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1132

@Bobby1 #1: level 7 #2: level 8: #3: level 9
by Edano 5/12/2011 4:43:45 PM

@Panserbjorne9 That is a good point ..choice . I agree with that. I was refering to the relative risk of doing such things. They all result in injury or death. Choice is an important factor, but I would guess the computers you guys(gals) are using are powered by the grid. That also is a choice and some of that power comes from nuclear.\
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 4:44:09 PM

@Edano That's exactly what we don't need here, come on.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:44:19 PM

@Pedro Jesus : at least in germany, the term "worst case" is well defined as corium melting thru the vessel.
by Edano 5/12/2011 4:45:11 PM

@RBeaner not me, i have a hamster in a wheel powering mine. there's another running my coffee maker. they seem happy. it's a win-win
by Panserbjorne9 5/12/2011 4:45:53 PM

OK, following Elaine's hint, should we continue this on the other scribble and get back to reporting and discussing news here?
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:46:01 PM

@Pedro Jesus Since all we can do is speculate, it should be informed speculation. Like plutonium, how much was released in the Saturday smoke show? Common sense says a significant amount. Whatever happened was enough to further damage the #3 building.
by Bobby1 5/12/2011 4:46:11 PM

in german, the term is "super-gau". gau is defined as the worst assumable accident "within design". everything above is "super-gau", worst case.
by Edano 5/12/2011 4:48:51 PM

wind turbine accidents and fatalities ....How do you copy a shortcut to a pdf you have in fav folder or on screen?
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 4:49:45 PM

@RBeaner You have to be able to open the PDF.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:51:05 PM

@RBeaner You need to subscribe to the Acrobat app that does that.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:52:46 PM

@RBeaner : i don't think anyone wants to read about "wind turbine accidents and fatalities". this is of off topic.
by Edano 5/12/2011 4:53:04 PM

Can someone help me track down some data? I need to find out when they have done water injections on 2,3,4 related to Sunday early morning and yesterday early morning. I need to see if water injections were happening near or during both steam releases.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 4:53:13 PM

@lillymunster Will get on that now.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:53:57 PM

@lillymunster is nancy ? i did not know.
by Edano 5/12/2011 4:55:01 PM

@Edano sorry, I hopped to my actual login for a few. yes tis me.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 4:58:30 PM

@RBeaner If you have any questions on wind turbines ask me at jesustiger@gmail.com I very close friend of mine, who is a Computer Engineer working on his doctorate is the main maintenance director of all wind power stations in the south of Portugal. He'll be glad to answer any questions on the matter and he has access to the whole archive.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 4:58:48 PM

I'm having information overload today and can't remember to save my life where water injection information would be.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 4:59:11 PM

The #2 and #3 RPVs are under continuous water injection, I believe. Unit 2 was getting 7 cubic meters/hr, and 3 was getting 9 cubic meters/hr throughout the weekend.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 4:59:30 PM

The special injections are in the NISA Reports.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 4:59:48 PM

@Edano What is the topic if it is not "relative Risk" to the population as a whole. That is why I am here. Not to analyze pixels and smoke/steam/fog, not knowig what it is. Is radiation risk not a tech item. I inlcude you in this comment Nancy/Elaine.... Not trying to cause a ruckus, but Jim did have a point yesterday. He felt the scribbles were not accomplishing the functions he and others (including at least me) had envisioned origionally.
Yes @Rbeaner I believe Jim has filled to gap wonderfully with his forums and his interview was really good. This scribble wall is a live conversation and not really suited/intended to indepth discussion on the human side of the disaster
by RBeaner edited by elainekirk 5/12/2011 4:59:49 PM

TEPCO to release their new plan on what to do Tuesday www3.nhk.or.jp
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:03:05 PM

@Markfm So is that a continuous flow 24-7 into the RPV etc.?
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:03:56 PM

@Pedro Jesus I can't copy the shortcut to the pdf, but 70 deaths and rising more than linear, working on windmills, by choice search "Summary of Wind Turbine Accident data to 31 March 2011"
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 5:04:22 PM

@RBeaner What were the functions that you originally envisioned this board to have?
by Bobby1 5/12/2011 5:04:57 PM

@RBeaner I really don't know what your trying to accomplish.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:05:03 PM

@lillymunster A memo or consensus for change. Once we tracked the technicals and the news reporting, I felt we would be able to do something with it, in Addition to commenting on it along the way. I guess I thought we had a group interested and knowledgeable enough to do something More than chat amongst ourselves. Am I just plain wrong?
by RBeaner 5/12/2011 5:08:23 PM

@lillymunster I don't think it is a continuous flow 24/7 since on those dates they were still pumping water from the vertical shaft and the condenser to make room for more contaminated water. I'm trying to find the information you need.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 5:08:24 PM

@Nancy According to Tepco's latest release they watered fuel pools on 5/11 From 4:07-7:38pm and added hydrazine from 4:14-7:36pm. I'll have to look at the earlier releases to see if there's more info.
by LM 5/12/2011 5:08:58 PM

Just in case has not be post before... I was not on line yesterday... The Great Fukushima Smoke-Out: 11 May 2011 福島第一原発情報カメラ www.youtube.com
by Majjham Zazen 5/12/2011 5:09:44 PM

@LM thanks, we were trying to sort that out yesterday, if they were watering at night or not. Seems the answer is no. Seems afternoon until about sunset was the watering times. So that rules out water injection as the cause of the smoke shows. Another odd thing is the smoke or steam would crank up before the posted time of the earthquake. I would think the steam would release after the quake started not before.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:11:59 PM

@you Ok, we at least know the SFPs were not watered at that time.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:12:35 PM

@Nancy I'm not a chemist but wondered what, if any, hydrazine reactions might occur?
by LM 5/12/2011 5:13:59 PM

@RBeaner Elaine and I have been doing research for weeks trying to get plant history info because knowing the state of the plant tells us what really went wrong during and after. That is pretty much done. Dean started working on a time line and is doing an analysis of what plant equipment did what in that hour between the eq and tsunami.
A number of people want to start releasing useful information or at least some statement of what should change in handling Fuku or to prevent another one. This is why I keep pushing for the web site and name to get done.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:15:05 PM

Could the addition of hydrazine spur reactions that occurred over a period of hours?
by LM 5/12/2011 5:15:07 PM

Terrible reading, but the NISA reports seem complete relative to special injections. Nothing on 2 this past weekend. #3 had: Fresh water to the spent fuel pool coolant purification system using a fuel pool (about 60t) injection (5 月 8 日 12:10～14:10） May 8, 12:10 to 14:10) Number 4 had: Concrete pump trucks (62m class) about the fresh water discharge to 120t (May 7 - 14:05 17:30）・コンクリートポンプ車（62m 級）により淡水約 100t を放水（5 月 9 日 16:05～ - Concrete pump trucks (62m class) about the fresh water discharge to 100t (May 9 - 16:05 (injections on Sat, then Monday)
by Markfm 5/12/2011 5:15:45 PM

@LM what was the date hydrazine started being added?
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:15:51 PM

@Markfm ok, I think the big one to know would be internal injections of water at 3 since it seems to be what went totally haywire both times.
by lillymunster 5/12/2011 5:18:18 PM

@lillymunster You meant water injection to the reactors, right? Hydrazine was pumped into the #2 SPF on the 10th from 13:19 until 14:35.
by Pedro Jesus 5/12/2011 5:18:50 PM

It ran 9 m3/hr throughout the weekend, per the plant parameters tables.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 5:18:56 PM

Hydrazine 1:19-2:35pm 5/9. I'm looking for more.
by LM 5/12/2011 5:20:26 PM

TEPCO has now reported, through a management rep speaking at a press conference, a number of new things about Fukushima Daiichi No. 1.

-There are some welded pipe failures, amounting to a total leak area of several centimeters, now known to exist at No. 1 plant. The exact systems and locations have not been revealed. This is one source of outflow from the reactor vessel.

-There may be failures of the lower pressure vessel head. This would be a second source for outflow.

-It appears that the entire active fuel region of the core, when in normal condition, is exposed .. i.e. not covered with water. It may not have been since nearly the start of the casualty.

-Some of the fuel has very likely melted and dropped into the lower pressure vessel head area. BWR reactors, because of their power profile, would be expected to experience fuel element melt from the center outward over a span of time without cooling. TEPCO has not given a clue as to how much of the fuel is damaged, but we noted the reduction a few weeks ago in the estimated percentage from 70 %down to 55 %and wonder if this won't get moved back up. Perhaps higher.

Again, the exact location of the mentioned pipe holes is not known. The lower pressure vessel head failures may be one and the same... i.e. welded pipe penetrations in this lower head or the core barrel near the head flange. CRDM drive tubes are also likely candidates if a molten fuel pour occurred.

Speculation is now wide in the media and among knowledgeable persons that TEPCO will not meet its previously stated timeline for recovery.

...What is surprising to this author is the apparent surprise among some other supposedly knowledgeable people that the water in the turbine buildings has been coming all along from the feed and bleed cooling of the reactors. Today I have seen at least two stories in big media where purported nuclear engineers are quoted as saying that "there is raised the possibility that this water is coming from the reactor buildings, having come from the reactors themselves" or some such. This is not a surprise, has been the case all along, has been the cause of all of the highly contaminated water found on site and in the ocean and frankly anyone acting surprised about this now should be embarrassed. atomicpowerreview.blogspot.com
by Lethbridgean edited by elainekirk 5/12/2011 5:20:39 PM

NILU ends public forecasts as map shows large radiation clouds now over US, Canada (VIDEOS) enenews.com
by Majjham Zazen 5/12/2011 5:22:04 PM

Sounds like TEPCO is saying what I had expected -- stress failures on the bottom penetrations.
by Markfm 5/12/2011 5:22:14 PM

The best is the last line and very relevant given this mornings discussion. " This is not a surprise, has been the case all along, has been the cause of all of the highly contaminated water found on site and in the ocean and frankly anyone acting surprised about this now should be embarrassed."
by Lethbridgean 5/12/2011 5:23:14 PM