Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1266

Interesting question, but IIRC, from things Dean has shared, at least in some cases buildings may operate at a slight negative pressure (relative to outdoors), just to avoid easy escape of contaminated gas. If you open a valve, have at least a partial failure on check valve for #4, and #4 is at slightly under 1 atm, flow to #4 would be the path of least resistance. Misfortunate series, but things had been hammered by the EQ. This is one possibility that I honestly cannot dismiss out of hand.
by Markfm 5/19/2011 4:38:52 PM

@nancy I have not as yet got anything concrete enough to answer that it is as vague as the amount of mox stored at fuku but I will find it....eventually
by elainekirk 5/19/2011 4:39:32 PM

@Lethbridgean I am assuming,FWIW, that the HEPA filters for the combined vent discharge were after the join of the two discharges, to save money and maintenece. So the path of least resistence may not have been throught the filters and up the stack.
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:39:57 PM

@Lethbridgean : you do not quote a physical law. the physical law says a gas always covers the most space it can get. normally you have pumps/vents to make it move. but without electrical power ?
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:40:36 PM

@Markfm But that neg pressure would be enabled or maintained through the main exhaust stack, wouldn't it. I don't think ventilation in #4 was working after the main power outage.
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:41:40 PM

@Edano - In the flow of gas it always goes from high pressure to low pressure, the same as heat always goes from hot to cold. And yes your right about gas always equally filling a closed container in a STATIC enviroment. Two different property's Edano.
by Lethbridgean 5/19/2011 4:43:24 PM

@Edano How many control rooms at fuku for 6 plants 1 for 1, 1 for 2 and 1 for 3+4, and 1 for 5+6 for total of 4 control rooms??
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:43:57 PM

There wa another problem with the vent system at Daiichi and that is the pipe supports that you see taking vents to towers , they are supported and the support brackets along the pipe actually cause a problem with gases inside the pipe it was a paper I read thatwas out of my depth when it came to the nitty gritty therefore I need to find it again and let people see what I am talking about
by elainekirk 5/19/2011 4:44:12 PM

@RBeaner @Lethbridgean @Edano I was just thinking about that. Without power to drive the pumps, it is likely that even the faintest breeze blowing against the vents could drive the gas down the pipes and back into the buildings. And that place is known to have strong winds.
by Pedro Jesus 5/19/2011 4:44:13 PM

also, the sense of a big tower is to reach highere areas with more wind. the wind ensures a certain vacuum in the pipe so that the steam can be forced out. this is the chimney principle. the chimney must be higher than the highest part of a building. therefore, chimneys are passively vented. but for more forced ventilation, you need vents.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:44:24 PM

I truly don't know. Just looking at pressure balance/imbalance. I don't know what valve opening/closing sequence occurs during an attempted venting, particularly under crisis conditions. We already know that it looks like people had previously been caught up in "fog of war" (the likely manual shutdown of a cooling system).
by Markfm 5/19/2011 4:44:28 PM

@Pedro Jesus - that cross wind would create a ventury effect that would actually pull the gas out the vent stack harder..
by Lethbridgean 5/19/2011 4:45:16 PM

@Pedro Jesus : no. on top of the pipe tower there is a simple valve that only opens upwards. venting from above is not possible.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:46:10 PM

@Edano wind blowing accross your sewer pipe will suck air (vacumn), but put a HEPA bank in there, that needs forced air to overcome.
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:46:13 PM

Could work either way. (Bad) luck of the draw does happen -- I own a wood stove at home, downdraft has indeed occurred, depending on if I mess up what vent mechanisms are open. Anyhow, net, I see TEPCO's assertion that it could at least be part of the H2 in 4 as plausible.
by Markfm 5/19/2011 4:47:03 PM

hello to all .. back for a bit
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:47:38 PM

@Markfm I've seen it happen.
by Pedro Jesus 5/19/2011 4:47:45 PM

@dean hi:)
by elainekirk 5/19/2011 4:48:37 PM

@Markfm : it would be a very silly construction if this was possible. i doubt it. this is nearly impossible.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:50:08 PM

Agreeing to disagree is a fair thing to do.
by Markfm 5/19/2011 4:50:50 PM

hi dean
by Nancy 5/19/2011 4:50:55 PM

@Lethbridgean @Markfm @Edano The origional question was ""@Nancy, some other bit of info stuck in my mind: at 2:15, an open pipe on the side of what might be building of #2 is shown in this vid : www.youtube.com . Any idea what it is for? Where is fitter? Would he know?
by Peter Melzer at 11:40 AM www.youtube.com I suggest it is shared R#3 + R#4 vent duct pipe
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:51:10 PM

hi @ Nanci
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:52:00 PM

hi elaine
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:52:12 PM

i magine how many people would die in the cities due of lack of o2 / too much c02 if the chimneys would not work correctly or reverse.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:52:38 PM

it seems like alot of information is coming forward
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:52:45 PM

@Dean did you get a pdf from elaine via me, just want to know if it worked correctly
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:52:59 PM

@Edano It has been known to have happened, unfortunately, even with modern designs. And I'm sure it is not exclusive of Portugal.
by Pedro Jesus 5/19/2011 4:53:52 PM

yes I have it RBeaner... hey a question for you .. when you worked at plants were you ever familiar with NAD's..
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:54:05 PM

May 19 2011 Fukushima: Radioactive Cesium In Seawater Samples Near Reactor 3 Triples In A Day, Now At 1,800 Times Limit (Video)
May 19 2011
TEPCO: Reactor No.3 High Radiation Levels Make It ‘Difficult’ To Start Nitrogen Injections NEEDED To Prevent Hydrogen Blast (Video)
May 19 2011
Japan: Radioactive Cesium 5 Times Limit Found In Miyagi Pasture Grass (Video)
May 19 2011
No. 6 Reactor Has Up To 2 Meters Of Contaminated Groundwater In Turbine Building, Water Flowing Into Reactor Building May Cause Emergency Power System To Cool The Reactor To Fail
May 19 2011
And Now … Special Adviser To Japanese Government: US Made ‘Strong Request’ To Dump Radioactive Water Into Ocean
May 19 2011
Fukushima Worker On His Measured Internal Radiation Level Of 30,000 CPM: ‘My Measured Value Exceeded The Standard Value By A Double-Digit Factor. That’s Never Happened Before’
May 19 2011
New Madrid Seismic Zone FLOODED, Several Shots Over 50 Miles (05/17/2011)
Environment, Global New www.infiniteunknown.net
by Tenzing 5/19/2011 4:55:19 PM

@Pedro Jesus : yes, it can happen, but not very often. mostly it is bad maintenance.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:55:24 PM

@Edano Yes. And we've seen evidence of bad maintenance at Fukushima Daiichi, so there is a possibility.
by Pedro Jesus 5/19/2011 4:56:12 PM

@Dean nuke air detecters
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:56:29 PM

Go to 4:17 in this vid for Bernoulli's law in how it works in regards to chimney effect.
by Lethbridgean 5/19/2011 4:56:36 PM

@Pedro Jesus i agree to disagree.
by Edano 5/19/2011 4:57:41 PM

RBeaner at the plant where I worked they called them Nuclear Accident Dosimeter
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:58:16 PM

@Dean in the bottom of the TLD's?, i think indium or something activatable by neutrons
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 4:59:15 PM

www.tpub.com
by Dean 5/19/2011 4:59:25 PM

right.. the foil piece.. the plant also had a cylindrical piece that hung on the wall in the main reactor area and would be pulled in the event of a nuclear accident .. I just wondered if Fukuhima had those..
by Dean 5/19/2011 5:00:17 PM

@Dean yea I was thinking the personal accident dosimeter. I would imagine they had plenty of standard type TLD's on personnel early on, I don't know anything about wall mounted units
by RBeaner 5/19/2011 5:01:52 PM

most facilities have some sort of detection which would be used to determine the magnitude of the accident, especially for a severe accident where one would want to see level of neutrons.... doesn't really matter there much by now.. tho
by Dean 5/19/2011 5:03:58 PM

well, another thing: the connection between 3+4 is obviously broken by the tsunami www.houseoffoust.com
by Edano via Houseoffoust 5/19/2011 5:05:50 PM