Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1469

If we hypothesize that any of the spent fuel in the pool at #4 got hot enough to start the zircalloy breakdown process, and that's what I think we're seeing with the bubbles rising to the surface in the 'first peek' video @hudebnik was interested in a while ago, then we don't need to look elsewhere for where the hydrogen came from--it came from the #4 pool itself, as the zirc and water combined to produce oxygen and hydrogen. It was HOT, it's condition was the issue that first prompted the US NRC to speak publicly about it's concern, their belief that the #4 pool was essentially out of water and had a big problem. I think the fact that it had water by the time pictures taken only indicates that subsequent spraying put water back into the pool, not that it had always had enough water. If you compare the way spent fuel pools look in Nancy's pictures, it's clear the #4 doesn't look that way. People keep saying that the fuel in #4 is okay, didn't have a problem, but I don't think based just on the visuals we have that this is necessarily so. We can see the diagonal lift handles in some of the assemblies, but some places it doesn't look like it matches any of the situations shown in the Nancy pics--not empty slots, not healthy assembly tops, not clear what we're seeing? Each building perfectly capable of producing its own hydrogen? You don't need to melt the whole pool to get enough hydrogen to explode?
by Mart 6/1/2011 8:32:17 PM

and all their plants are near the ocean.
by Edano 6/1/2011 8:32:39 PM

@mart sorry you were trapped in mod you are now on autopost
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 8:32:55 PM

@Edano If you were cold and wet, would you be satisfied with warm and half dry clothes? Ther is NOT going to be a Happy ending to this saga.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 8:33:24 PM

@Edano They simply need to start making progress, it builds on itself. It's not going to make the radioactivity of 1/5 of japan, go away.. It is going to start the turn around. I just pray for some progress, and it is there for the taking... Do it TEPCO and GOJ.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 8:41:21 PM

@RBeaner : this is not a ten year desaster, it is hundred years.
by Edano 6/1/2011 8:43:40 PM

@Mart I agree 100% with that analysis.
by radioguy 6/1/2011 8:51:41 PM

@Edano I completely agree, but "the journey of 1 thousand miles starts with one step.. And then you just put one foot in front of the other.. They have no need to solvr it in a swoop. I would , me, much rather see progress on many small fronts. They Simply Can't make the problem go away, there is no magic wand, people have had their lives ........ changed, forever. There was a word I wanted but I couldn't find it in my head. By proper action, they could make that hundred years into 50, and by innopvative action they could make that 50 into 20-25. At the plant. That is the best we can hope for IMO. But get started.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 8:52:09 PM

@mart that explains it to me thank you
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 8:53:16 PM

To me, the LemmingMeter will only drop below Suicide March once I see a viable entombment plan that recognizes global warming sea rise, because otherwise they are once again drinking their own Kool-Aid rather than thinking in terms of fact-based reality.
by radioguy 6/1/2011 8:56:15 PM

@Edano I posted a cheery video for you on the other page, just learned that.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 8:58:17 PM

But first, maybe they could figure out what to do with the water on-site. ;)
by radioguy 6/1/2011 8:58:41 PM

Map "Large Aquifer Systems of the World"
www.bgr.bund.de zoom in japan !
by Edano 6/1/2011 8:59:13 PM

translate.google.com
This is a translation - Seabed to the tsunami of toxic substances on land? Univ investigate the mud - but it shows the problems they are going to have on top of the radiation
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 8:59:16 PM

@radioguy entombment is , to me, the wrong approach, they don't have the ground to give up, like chernobyl. Chernobyl was in the middle of a huge nomans land to begin with. They had plenty of room to move those people to. Fuku is on the sea, not stable long term, and Japan just doesn't have the land to surrender to radioactivity.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 9:01:55 PM

Circulating Seawater Purification Equipment at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station
(pictured on June 1, 2011)
www.tepco.co.jp
by Rob in SF via Tepco.co.jp 6/1/2011 9:05:45 PM

i googled all the time about japan and aquifers, there is nothing. nobody discusses this ?
by Edano 6/1/2011 9:06:36 PM

@Rob in SF That is a picture of a bit of ingenuity, bout time.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 9:07:05 PM

@Edano Being directly adjacent to the ocean, I would assume mostg groundwater, when not pumped up for use, ends up flowing into the ocean, not that that is great, but it is better than poolluting the entire aquifer.
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 9:10:38 PM

by Edano via Iahr.org 6/1/2011 9:11:13 PM

not about fuku, but a lot of theory: www.iahr.org
by Edano 6/1/2011 9:13:02 PM

I am no expert but reading this I wonder with the area of subsidence of groundwater inland from fukushima could mean water flows inland ?
www.narb
yes doing it nowo.jp
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 9:22:50 PM

The variable that is not figured into that diagram is that the Tohoku Quake dropped the Japanese coastline, and in the adjustment there would be an increase in intrusion until it equalizes. I'd expect to see some increases in the groundwater to the new highpoint in the impervious layer.
by radioguy 6/1/2011 9:23:16 PM

That is to say, until it hits the same point on the new slope, which will be inland from the original.
by radioguy 6/1/2011 9:24:47 PM

@elainekirk : there is an interesting graphic that says that groundwater level has risen by 15 meters since 1974
Very interesting I just found more and wonder whether it is water rising - how does the land sinking sound- just gonna pot a map
by Edano edited by elainekirk 6/1/2011 9:27:44 PM

Guys just thought everyone should know that all posts with links will be going through to twitter and facebook. If people do not like this idea they can speak up and we will try to sort out something.
by Angie 6/1/2011 9:27:53 PM

@all
As a part of the new link capturing approach we're working on for the WordPress website, excerpts are essential, since the links will be divorced from continuity. If we put excerpts along with the link the new page will capture the important search terms. Think in your excerpt in terms of search usefulness. Don't drop the lede.
by radioguy 6/1/2011 9:31:21 PM

www.mlit.go.jp
So if I am correct and those blue dots are in the area of tepco plant
it means the land is subsiding and has been known to be subsiding <2005

by elainekirk 6/1/2011 9:35:04 PM

by Edano via Env.go.jp 6/1/2011 9:50:19 PM

(2) In Tokyo's wards, Osaka City, Nagoya City and other urban areas, where there had been significant degrees of ground subsidence, this phenomenon appears to have slowed or virtually stopped as a result of controls on withdrawal of groundwater and other measures. In other areas, there are signs of long-term improvement, but ground subsidence remains a problem in some areas such as Minami-Uonuma.
(3) As a result of many years of ground subsidence, buildings, faci-qities structures, irrigation facilities, port facilities, harbor facilities, farmland and agricultural facilities have been damaged in many dis-tricts, and in some areas that are at or below sea level, there is a danger of severe disasters such as floods, high tides and tidal waves (Tsunami). www.env.go.jp
by Edano 6/1/2011 9:53:34 PM

@Edano a nice generic pictorial though, helps the understanding:)
by RBeaner 6/1/2011 9:55:20 PM

www.narbo.jp groundwater in Japan
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 9:58:32 PM

@elainekirk : yes, thx !!!!!
by Edano 6/1/2011 9:58:57 PM

so the japanese have potential problems with all their plants, the older the more.
by Edano edited by Edano 6/1/2011 10:00:07 PM

by Edano via Env.go.jp 6/1/2011 10:05:52 PM

so is daiichi sinking @edano
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 10:07:13 PM

@elainekirk and the groundwater rising, and not only daiichi.
by Edano 6/1/2011 10:09:10 PM

www.env.go.jp
by Edano 6/1/2011 10:10:51 PM

@elainekirk : now we are ready to write a qualified dissertation about japan subsidences.
by Edano 6/1/2011 10:12:50 PM

@elainekirk I will bb in 3hrs have fun @angie
by Angie edited by elainekirk 6/1/2011 10:16:34 PM

@edano they knew these studies told them so why didnt they stop ? they knew quakes, tsunami's and subsidence why continue with nuclear all those mountains they could have developed a safer and cheaper source of power
by elainekirk 6/1/2011 10:18:12 PM

@elainekirk I think you just asked the million dollar qu & 1 that people in Japan & possibly all over the world will want an answer too. My best guess is that back in the 60's science & technology were supposed to be able to come up with solutions for everything, to be a country with nuke power was to be part of an elite.. then big business interests took over. Oh and the arrogance of scientists about unproven risks and the misuse of risk /benefit /cost analyses which led people to believe that factoring in a once in 1000 year scenarios did not make economic sense. I know I'm addressing a rhetorical question... but it's 1 future generations will demand is answered...
by UKVal 6/1/2011 10:41:14 PM

@elainekirk Indeed, and as you know many voices have long been calling for policy changes.
by es 6/1/2011 10:48:29 PM

This resolution demanding a clean break with nuclear power generation and a conversion of Japan's energy policy was put forward by the Consumers Union of Japan in June 2010 - Local Energy Production For Local Energy Consumption: www.nishoren.org
by es 6/1/2011 10:48:49 PM