Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2357

Finally back! Looking at Ian's video, It would be west of the plant since the plant is on the coast. I would think they are south at around a 45 degree angle from the plants. We might be able to use Google Earth to go to the approximate
location and find this store and street corner
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 4:03:32 PM

just trying to find it
by elainekirk 9/17/2011 4:13:50 PM

BRB have to reboot
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 4:25:02 PM

I have not seen this view of #4 before. Ran across it looking for more Chernobyl images i51.tinypic.com
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 4:37:59 PM

by lillymunster via I51.tinypic 9/17/2011 4:39:09 PM

I think a later one has some of those panels missing
by elainekirk 9/17/2011 4:41:11 PM

Interesting video inside Chernobyl - shows corium flow and other areas inside.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 4:46:21 PM

you have given me an idea
by elainekirk 9/17/2011 5:25:53 PM

@elainekirk what is it?
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 5:28:30 PM

@lillymunster, that hole through Unit 4 is at the 4th floor below the upper deck. It's hard to buy the hydrolysis theory that it exploded only due to gas from the fuel pool accumulated in the 5th floor. Good observations on the smoke video. What bugs me is that the smoke is so sustained. The Unit 3 explosion for example should have output a heavy plume followed by increasingly thin to nil 'smoke', but this smoke is still pouring out long after what would have been closer to the initial output. So if it's Daiichi, this might even be the March 21-23 smoke from Unit 3.
by Ian 9/17/2011 5:29:40 PM

@Ian #4 exploded and had 2 fires in it. So if it was early morning it could still be burning?
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 5:30:36 PM

rough drawing of corium paths
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 5:38:42 PM

unit 5 cooling failure in '08 makes interesting reading makes you wonder if they checked the other units www.atomdb.jnes.go.jp
by elainekirk 9/17/2011 5:41:20 PM

@lillymunster, yeah, the reports of fires fits. Though we don't see much burning damage there. There's not that much to burn at an NPP, mostly lots of metal concrete. The SPF4 fuel doesn't seem to've burned. The corium paths you show make sense to me. Some schematics that suggest a rise before the suppression chamber feed-in may be off. The schematic you use is the most accurate looking.
by Ian 9/17/2011 5:47:09 PM

@Ian If you look at the large version of that there is a small sand pit right under the junction of the containment and the bottom of the pipe leading into the torus. If this drawing is right there is actually a dip down rather than a lip up.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 5:52:15 PM

And, imo, a dip down also makes more sense. Why have a dipped-down feed in tube and a rise just before it?
by Ian 9/17/2011 5:55:45 PM

Each reactor core at fukushima has 70 tons for #1 and 90 tons each for 2 & 3. At Chernobyl the estimate is 50 tons of fuel and 800 tons of graphite left inside the reactor to melt down. Does anyone know how graphite acts. I know it has a lower melt point that corium but would it keep the heat going in a lava flow or slow it down at that point?
texasvox.org

www.nytimes.com

I will get that drawing uploaded so there is one you can see details on. I wrote in measurements etc.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 5:55:48 PM

Use the link to get the very large version. It has measurements of the concrete thicknesses and details like containment door, the sand pit etc. www.houseoffoust.com
by lillymunster via Houseoffoust 9/17/2011 5:57:57 PM

@lillymunster very nice, but you calculate a lot of corium ;)
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:07:23 PM

the "sand bag" at the torus connector bottom is a weak point. and from there, there is for sure a path down along the lightbulb bottom under the levelled floor. and we don't know what channels for cables are in the basemat where corium would spread.
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:13:36 PM

@Edano the corium is just illustration, not calculated volume. :-)
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:14:43 PM

Re: the mysterious video www.youtube.com I can't find anything about a store called Sendo like the store in the video. I also can't get the google-street man to place in many likely locations. Amazing how often when you search for Japanese terms and especial using Japanse characters you get erotic / porno imagery with image search. Japan might be the most sexually libertine society on earth. Using image search can be an effective method when you're looking for some involving visual content.
by Ian 9/17/2011 6:14:54 PM

@lillymunster graphite is carbon. it will just burn and go away. => CO2
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:15:00 PM

@Edano Water is finding all sorts of ways out so corium could find various paths we don't know about that are smaller.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:15:26 PM

@lillymunster you are very generous with the corium mass. :)
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:15:39 PM

@lillymunster i also thought about water. it even finds a way under my floor tiles. :)
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:16:52 PM

@Edano that isn't good. :-) These pathways could explain the steam shows, if they increased or did watering in the mornings of course it would find hot fuel and steam. The ones after quakes or during watering could have nudged bits of fuel into places where water collected. There was also mentions of steam and high radiation coming out of floor pass throughs for pipes etc. in Unit 1.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:19:52 PM

@Edano would burning up the graphite really do much then to the corium to slow it down?
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:20:27 PM

@lillymunster i don't think so. but what do you refer to ?
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:22:39 PM

@Edano just wondering if the graphite would cause any different behavior at Chernobyl with corium. This was all I could find on it en.wikipedia.org
Nuclear_graphite
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:27:53 PM

They had an intense graphite fire at Chernobyl. Probably this would exacerbate the fuel burning. As to Japan, The rebar in the concrete of the basemat is another factor determining the path corium would take. I imagine that the explosion people heard from unit 2's torus may have been related to corium reaching the suppression pool. In all likelihood, the hardened vent had closed and the residual heat remover was compromised by the tsunami. Hence steam built up with no way to go.
by Peter 9/17/2011 6:41:37 PM

chernobyl was graphite moderated, fuku is water moderated. in chernobyl there were large amounts of graphite which caused an immense explosion. i don't think that graphite played a big role in fukushima, if any. i think there are some amounts in the control rods.
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:41:48 PM

Rough draft of the drawing and chernobyl photos for contrast. I put it on the server since it is still very rough, didn't want it to get automatically tweeted or on the group website by accident til it is done and people think it is right. www.houseoffoust.com Let me know what it needs.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:45:29 PM

the connector pipe is metal ? it surely is not designed to carry corium and not able to withstand the temperature.
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:51:17 PM

@Edano , right. Tepco believes the black smoke stems from lubrication oil burning or rubber gaskets. Only that there is that much oil to burn?
by Peter 9/17/2011 6:52:18 PM

@Peter i never believed the oil story.
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:52:58 PM

@Edano yes the pipes are steel as is the torus. Don't know how thick compared to the RPV.
by lillymunster 9/17/2011 6:53:41 PM

@Ian, youre looking for Sendo? There is a Town called Sendo. Maybe it helps tinyurl.com
tinyurl.com
by Liz 9/17/2011 6:56:07 PM

since the corium has breached thru the rpv, the connector pipes will just melt away under it like butter.
by Edano 9/17/2011 6:57:28 PM

80 Bavarian Opera members refuse to tour in Japan on radiation fears :)

BERLIN, Sept. 17, Kyodo

Some 80 members of the 400-member Bavarian State Opera have refused to join its planned tour of Japan from Friday due to concern over radiation leaks at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, sources close to the Munich-based opera company said Saturday.

The Bavarian State Opera, one of the world's most prestigious opera companies known in Germany as Bayerische Staatsoper, will substitute the nonparticipating members with auxiliary members and other artists to perform on its programs.

Those who refuse to travel to Japan will be taking nonpaid holidays during the tour period, they said. english.kyodonews.jp
by Edano 9/17/2011 7:04:03 PM

english.kyodonews.jp

Building Fukushima reactor cover
Handout photo shows a cover under construction around the No. 1 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station in Fukushima Prefecture on Sept. 15, 2011. The cover is being installed to prevent further radioactive pollution escaping from the crippled plant. (Photo courtesy of Tokyo Electric Power Co.)(Kyodo) english.kyodonews.jp
by Edano via English.kyodonews.jp 9/17/2011 7:07:00 PM

I found the primary containment description: www-pub.iaea.org . I can't seem to cut and paste. Read pages 8, 9 and 10. The connections to the torus are made of one or two ply steel each two millimeters thick.
by Peter 9/17/2011 7:14:19 PM