Japan Earthquake | Page 2410

  • re: last posting, i gotta post what i find, even if i don't agree, so that we all see what's out there for the masses to digest. but privately- barf.
    by Panserbjorne9 9/26/2011 8:36:07 PM

  • Japan to Install Wind Turbines off Fukushima Coast www.sustainablebusiness.com
    by Panserbjorne9 9/26/2011 8:39:20 PM

  • hmmm, if cesium is relatively harmless when spread out but deadly when concentrated, doesn't that pose a problem if the objective of decontamination is to remove it from wide areas and dump it into a much smaller volume/area???
    by artnuke 9/26/2011 8:40:00 PM

  • ok comments showing up again. I just saw that indeed the "acute lukemia" guy is the same one simplyinfo wonders is the same guy in a picture next to a 10SV/hr hotspot. Why won't government release the name of the man, or confirm whether he is the same person? US doesn't have problems releasing names of victims of disasters, is this some Japanese cultural thing? We even have name of Japanese soldiers and sailors in WWII, but still do not have names of Fukushima 50 or any of the witnesses described in the press that is not a high official or ranking military officer. As I said before, wouldn't it be a good idea to train people to look for the cesium stains? Do you think anybody on site even thought of that?? Somebody at the site should be monitoring this board for useful information, not just as "incorrect" info to block from japanese internet.
    by artnuke 9/26/2011 8:40:12 PM

  • Labour conference: Jack Dromey says UK nuclear 'safe' Labour conference: Jack Dromey says UK nuclear 'safe'
    by Panserbjorne9 9/26/2011 8:40:35 PM

  • @Panserbjorne9 labour said there were WMD's in Iraq
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 8:41:14 PM

  • @elainekirk aaaaaaaaahhhh.
    by Panserbjorne9 9/26/2011 8:43:19 PM

  • @artnuke Did you find some thing that connected the guy who had acute leukemia (radiation poisoning) and the guy in the image? We found that the image was taken at the same time frame as when the guy worked there but didn't find further connection.
    JP culture is more private and that was cited as reason for not releasing his name or more details. I personally think it was a convenient dodge by TEPCO to not provide any details on the incident. They could give more details without giving the person's name.
    by lillymunster 9/26/2011 8:43:19 PM

  • @Panserbjorne9 the wind farm could be good
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 8:44:44 PM

  • I think the politics angle is important between the two sides of No-Threshold "you can scale it up to 1 million chernobyl deaths and fukushima is worse" vs "If it isn't enough to give you radiation sickness, there's not much evidence of all the cancers predicted at Chernobyl" theories. Busby and Moret are primary proponents of the LNT, the BBC Jim Al-Khalili seems to be the "guy to debunk" on the "fear of radiation is the big problem" idea. I think Busby and Moret are fronts for a political agenda, Khalili and the UN are mainstream pro-nuke types but that doesn't mean they are wrong, there's nothing wrong with taking sides as long as everybody starts and agrees on the same facts. "Radiation phobia, the belief that exposure to a small dose of radiation is dangerous, persists because media outlets and government agencies continue to fan the flames of fear in the public despite a wealth of research to the contrary. Radiation phobia-related harm is a significant risk that should be considered during radiological emergencies such as the incident at the Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan. Such radiation phobia is based on the linear no-threshold (LNT) hypothesis, an outdated and incorrect assumption that any amount of radiation can cause cancer no matter how small the dose. The LNT model claims that there is a linear increase in cancers as the radiation exposure increases. The model assumes that if every member of a large population received a small dose of radiation, cancer rates would increase."

    [obviously a quotation without source] [Edano]
    by artnuke edited by Edano 9/26/2011 8:45:49 PM

  • @elainekirk as long as it's not just blowing the radiation right back inland
    by Panserbjorne9 9/26/2011 8:48:11 PM

  • @artnuke would you happen to know the trigger for auto immune type 1 or asthma or the myriad of other auto immune diseases that have become rife in recent years?. It would be really good if the people who are so certain that x,y and z pose no threat to human health could just run through a list of suspected environmental triggers and pick out the culprit
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 8:50:37 PM

  • @lillymunster I believe your hunch the guy next to the 10SV spot is mr. acute lukemia is absolutely correct, and am astounded I can't find anybody else (besides me) who independently agrees that isn't just some random youtube commenter. Sometimes these hunches are brilliant when there is no hard evidence to go on, such as who was the guy pointing at the camera. Perhaps the Japanese could show enough outrage to demand they set the facts straight, only so much we can do on this sde of the pond in english.
    by artnuke 9/26/2011 8:50:42 PM

  • @elainekirk I don't know about all the autoimmune things going on. I have dug up that the primary promoter of the "peanut allergies can kill" are the people who make the antidote pens, and that fewer than a dozen people in the US die from ALL food allergies in a year which you would not expect given all the peanut hysteria. The first thing I thought on seeing the picture of the guy 10 ft away from the cesium stain is that if there is such as thing as enough cesium to kill you, we're looking at it, and he's standing right next to it. That's probably as much cesium as that medical device in Mexico that got scavenged that injured a good part of a village before they got a handle on it, I think it was 5SV /hr or something like that. Why they need enough radiation to kill somebody just to calibrate geiger counters sounds like a bad idea in any case. I think I finally have an understanding how bad cesium is when there is enough to kill you after a few minutes exposure, but it's overkill if we're talking about 30,000 bq/sq meter when that's what you'd get packed into the Tokyo or Manhattan subway. Things are far worse than
    TEPCO makes it out to be , but far less scary than Busby and MOret want to paint it.
    by artnuke 9/26/2011 8:57:31 PM

  • @artnuke i really wonder why certain people wear dosimeters and why nukes have a primary containment, and why radioactive water isn't just released to the ocean, and i even wonder why they do not simply spread the nuclear waste around the world. if there is a threshold, spread and dilute !
    by Edano 9/26/2011 8:57:45 PM

  • I am going to drop a complaint to the BBC about Professor Al-Kalili's program. Anyone want to check what I was going to put up? There are a lot of points and I'm not sure how much to include. Anyone else done this?
    by hedge 9/26/2011 9:01:48 PM

  • @hedge that'a good idea. i can't stand this constant pro nuke agitation.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:02:34 PM

  • @artnuke I prefer to deal in facts. I don't possess the evidence necessary to establish that the person in the photo is the same person. Though I find the situation suspicious.

    As with the science of radiation exposure I don't have time for the idea of "camps" or politics. The problem is that our knowledge of radiation science is partially piecemeal and partially distorted and suppressed by people with other motivations. Some claim it is way worse than it is, others claim there is no risk or minimal risk. I would rather deal in facts. So I spend hours mucking through dry as toast journal articles trying to pick out facts.

    In doing that one thing I have found is that we have lots of data, some of it very old but nobody seems motivated to put it all together and attempt to make some clearer connections. We do have some "best guesses" on exposure levels for safety. What has been established by the medical community and for worker safety are at least guidelines to go by. The problem of inconclusive studies are also ripe for exploitation. Science doesn't always get the answer right away. So "we don't know for sure" is a valid conclusion. People with agendas will take that "we don't know" and declare is a definitive negative when it isn't
    by lillymunster 9/26/2011 9:02:39 PM

  • I need to run for a few, back in a bit.
    by lillymunster 9/26/2011 9:03:34 PM

  • @elainekirk what was our secret keyword ? i forgot it, but i wanted to say it now.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:08:01 PM

  • @Edano you remember doncha it's...
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:10:48 PM

  • @elainekirk something with tepco, but i really forgot it. :(
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:11:18 PM

  • @Edano no immediate threat to human health
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:11:50 PM

  • @hedge i am really interested in your bbc complaint. have you written anything ?
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:12:59 PM

  • teppypuppy ?
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:14:33 PM

  • @hedge @Edano
    I will join you in any complaint
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:15:04 PM

  • The primary and secondary containments in a Mark 1 BWR are designed to prevent ANY escape of signficant amounts of radioactive anything, solid, liquid or gas. That is withing a design-basis event. That is what the manual and GE says. The building has negative air pressure so any gases are supposed to go through a filtration system and out the stack, but that's assuming the building hasn't blown up. The supression pool is supposed to quench any sudden steam event from a breaking pipe, but the pool was already at boiling point so it had no effect, and wasn't based on hot fuel hitting a pool of water at the bottom of the containment which is supposed to be the DRY well. The system is designed so that it will FAIL MISERABLY in event of a meltdown, so the design parameter is so that it WON'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN, not that it will never happen. I have yet to see mention of Murphy's law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Corallary - Murphy was an optimist. When we get cities and governments to train and plan for a fukushima event, people will figure out there is a problem.
    by artnuke 9/26/2011 9:16:17 PM

  • It is not exactly short!
    by hedge 9/26/2011 9:16:43 PM

  • "I was interested to watch the recent Horizon documentary on Fukushima. However, I was concerned by the way the issue was represented and many of the issues raised by Fukushima were not addressed.
    I think some of my concerns are a result of the choice of presenter. I agree that Professor Al-Khalili is a good choice for someone who understands the theoretical workings of nuclear power, but this leads him to saying he wants to leave the politics and economics to one side and focus solely on the science.
    Particles may be bound by the rules of physics, but build, operation and maintenance of power stations is impacted by politics and economics – this is not just a scientific issue and cannot just be based on a “careful assessment of rational science”. (For instance, see recent reports on low quality concrete being used in the build of Chinese nuclear power stations.)
    Some points I noted as I watched the film:
    • The repeated claim of partial meltdowns is extremely misleading. Japanese authorities have confirmed three complete meltdowns.
    • The program seems to be presenting a clear message that the main health issue is from stress caused by worry about radiation and evacuation. (Yet Professor Al-Khalili requires wellies for protection to walk in a school playground outside the main evacuation area.) Whether or not this is true, is it a sign that people shouldn’t worry about the radiation or a sign that we should avoid nuclear power stations exploding?
    • Professor Al-Khalili covers the controversy around the impact of low dose rates. He recognizes that the consensus is that low dose rates are dangerous, but does not seem to address the implications of a linear model of impact – that Fukushima will cause many deaths. He prefers just to leave an open question on its validity. For authorities and locals surely working on the scientific consensus with allowance for worse case is actually reasonable and the evacuation in an unavoidable consequence of the nuclear plant explosion.
    • Professor Al-Khalili states, as a fact, that "[Nuclear power] provides vast amounts of cheap and reliable energy". One recent article from TIME has stated that "Once hailed as ‘too cheap to meter,’ nuclear fission turns out to be an outlandishly expensive method of generating juice for our Xboxes." (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2059603,00.html) Should Professor Al-Khalili’s statement have been justified?
    • The BBC has reported on the clean up process at Dounreay - a massive effort to clean a seabed after a (relatively) small release. Why if this release was so hazardous is Fukushima not massively more hazardous?
    • Fukushima is still not in cold shutdown and is still releasing radioactivity. Why is this point not covered?
    • There was no real attempt to look at the broader picture of nuclear safety. For example, there is a long history of failures at Japanese power stations and, since Fukushima, four US Nuclear power stations have been threatened - by earthquake, flood, power cuts and wild fires. Whilst no significant releases are believed to have occurred in these cases, primary power was lost and it is clear that a Fukushima type event is not unthinkable elsewhere.
    I would really love the BBC to put produce a really rigorous documentary on Fukushima. As Professor Al-Kalili points out nuclear power has major advantages in light of the climate change issues, so people’s concerns needed to be addressed properly.
    Unfortunately, this rigorous approach was not delivered by Horizon. In this situation, that is extremely dangerous. Maybe the BBC should consider a wider more thorough documentary including people knowledgeable about Japan, the politics involved in the nuclear industry and the role of powerful industries like Tepco in Japanese society.
    "
    by hedge 9/26/2011 9:17:01 PM

  • @hedge it is very good a couple of typo's . Only thing I would say is
    • The program seems to be presenting a clear message that the main health issue is from stress caused by worry about radiation and evacuation. (Yet Professor Al-Khalili requires wellies for protection to walk in a school playground outside the main evacuation area.) Whether or not this is true, is it a sign that people shouldn’t worry about the radiation or a sign that we should avoid nuclear power stations exploding?
    Could just be
    • The program seems to be presenting a clear message that the main health issue is from stress caused by worry about radiation and evacuation. Yet Professor Al-Khalili requires wellies for protection to walk in a school playground in a populated area
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:21:25 PM

  • @Hedge, very good and calm well thought out. You could add that the spent fuel cycle is frequently left out of the "cost" of nuclear power and taxpayers generally end up paying for that. In many cases the costs are astronomical and in the US we still don't even have a spent fuel solution.
    You could also add something that this piece does nothing to look at other viewpoints beyond the presenters. The presenter KNEW this piece was going to get blowback. He commented on his twitter account that people were going to dislike it and he accused anyone of disagreeing with him as being "conspiracy theorists" clearly this presenter has some objectivity issues of his own that fail him as an unbiased presenter of science to the public. Feel free to add in any of my babble or bits of it as you see fit. I think what you have there is great.
    by lillymunster 9/26/2011 9:24:59 PM

  • @hedge very cool. i would add that a "cold shutdown" is a term used for a normal operating reactor that is in a stable state in which it does not produce enough neutrons to establish criticality. it cannot be used for crippled reactors with completely unknown state of the fuel.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:25:01 PM

  • (or you just don't use "cold shutdown", that's easier) :)
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:28:39 PM

  • i think we face a major outburst of nuke PR, half a year after the catastrophe. the iaea meeting marked the starting point, and major media like the bbc will participate.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:31:14 PM

  • @Edano the bbc are despised North of the Border they are such brown nosers they wouldnt know an unbiased report if the fell over it and would probably report it as terrorist propoganda
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:34:54 PM

  • by the way, it is revealing that a professor talks about the advantages of nuke power (climate blabla, chaep blabla) without evaluating it in the wake of a nuke accident. it is simply pointless in this context.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:35:14 PM

  • @Edano who is he I think I will go dig
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:36:31 PM

  • Oh look the prof is such a professional news.bbc.co.uk
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:40:24 PM

  • @elainekirk omg he is soooo funny. :(
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:42:01 PM

  • why does a "Professor of Theoretical Physics" talk about a nuclear accident on tv ??? it is not his field.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:43:38 PM

  • @Edano www.guardian.co.uk and don;t forget the comments
    by elainekirk 9/26/2011 9:47:21 PM

  • @hedge, good job! I cover some problems with the BBC program here : www.youtube.com
    by Ian 9/26/2011 9:56:16 PM

  • okay, he seems to be a nice and funny theoretical scientist, but he has absolutely no idea of nukes, health or politics, he did not publish anything about it. so i think he is definitely overrepresented here.
    by Edano 9/26/2011 9:56:33 PM

  • Other problems with the BBC piece are covered here too : nfznsc.gn.apc.org
    by Ian 9/26/2011 9:57:09 PM

  • @Ian well done. we have a similar clown (Aiman Abdallah) here in german tv, but noone takes him serious. it is just "popular science".
    by Edano 9/26/2011 10:08:16 PM

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