Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2889

hi dean!
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 1:38:10 PM

@lilly, I would dismiss the idea that no melt down occured based on that assumption, I could easily see a meltdown with core relocation without affecting the area where the probe was placed nor the rust debris located on the inner surface. I would like to see what the surface of that area looks like under normal conditions anyway, it's old and may not be pristine
by dean 1/20/2012 1:43:52 PM

@dean i agree. :)
by Edano 1/20/2012 1:48:17 PM

@lillymunster, where is that idea about 2 expressed?
by Ian 1/20/2012 1:50:00 PM

@Edano :)
by dean 1/20/2012 1:51:16 PM

we have seen the chernobyl photos on the corium as it flowed in numerous locations and the equipment, piping etc. even closely
adjacent to the flow seemed to be in good condition and not affected
by dean 1/20/2012 1:52:46 PM

Introduction of sea water and then heating which resulted in steam and very humid atmosphere turn out to be the perfect conditions for advanced corrosion of the facility. I believe corrosion from rust can be estimated to be milimeters per year and, as Edano pointed out "will the piping etc. last until fuel is removed".
by dean 1/20/2012 1:56:14 PM

www.msnbc.msn.com Safety rules loosened for aging nuclear reactors
'We can't compromise on safety. I think the vulnerability is on these older plants,' says retired safety designer. Rusted piping at the Byron nuclear plant in Illinois caused this 10-gallon-per-minute leak in Oct. 19, 2007. The water from the pipe cools the reactor in an emergency. The plant was immediately taken offline for repairs.
by dean 1/20/2012 2:06:06 PM

Water is raining down from, it seems, the bottom of the reactor.
by Ian 1/20/2012 2:07:08 PM

Maybe the water is from the High Pressure Core Spray system.
by Ian 1/20/2012 2:12:59 PM

Low-pressure core spray system (LPCS)

The low-pressure core spray system is designed to suppress steam generated by a major contingency. As such, it prevents reactor vessel pressure from going above the point where LPCI and LPCS would be ineffective, which is above 32 atm (3200 kPa, 465 psi). It activates below that level, and delivers approximately 48,000 L/min (12,500 US gal/min) of water in a deluge from the top of the core.

en.wikipedia.org
by Ian 1/20/2012 2:14:46 PM

gnedenko-forum.org good article on corrosion at nuclear plants, also could be basis for the need to implement a new inspection program at fukushima for the idle plants safety related components to detect accelerated corrosion
by dean 1/20/2012 2:19:13 PM

will return in a bit
by dean 1/20/2012 2:26:53 PM

@All Goodmorning, etc. At 3 min in on the vid posted below by Ian, the cam pans past a vertical pipe. Is that a hole in the right side? Can't be a shadow, but it could be some kind of 'jog' in the pipe. Thoughts? My eye for this type of thing is not so good.
by M.I.A. 1/20/2012 2:30:16 PM

@Ian , the core sprayers are installed inside the rpv. There may be sprayers installed in the primary containment as well: bit.ly I don't recall that tepco uses them, though.
by Peter 1/20/2012 2:36:44 PM

With this much water dripping down, I wonder where it flows, ;)
by Peter 1/20/2012 2:39:52 PM

@Ian The notes i posted are from an email from Dr. Saji
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 2:56:22 PM

dean's comment about the condition of other equipment pre-disaster. Unit 5 had an image of below the reactor inside the pedestal where the control rod equipment (some of it) is located. Everything in there had a healthy coating of rust on all the metal parts. The ones that appeared to be powder coated or painted rusted less so.
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 2:58:29 PM

@Peter, I can't really tell where the camera is, but my sense is that the water rains down from a source above and outside the bottom of the RPV.
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:04:19 PM

@Ian based on where the access point is they are at a wider/lower part of the containment bulb so from that point in there is sloped "ceiling" over where they are sticking the camera in. That sloped overhang of the flared out bottom of the containment bulb could create a way for the water to collect and fall off as rain drops. The junction where the top of the containment meets the lower round part probably creates a heavy stream of water or raindrops. The water would run down the vertical sides, hit the turn as the concrete flares out and drop off there causing lots of rain in that are below the turn.
They could have kept going and gotten past the water falling but the radiation may have been too high to see anything further in based on what the workers said.
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:14:53 PM

@lillymunster, that make sense about water flow.
So Dr Saji is suggesting 2 didn't melt-through?
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:19:25 PM

Some worker tweets about the camera scope:

Happy20790 Happy
@
Banwa (^ O ^) @ Kero_Jiji operation of the camera I think about 2m from the wall of the containment vessel. Atmosphere each week dose 50mSv / h and is shielded from some, I think 10 times and a half turns in Group 1 quintile. Max exposure in the media like disciples were 3.7 mSv.Happy20790 Happy
@
Banwa (^ O ^) @ Kero_Jiji operation of the camera I think about 2m from the wall of the containment vessel. Atmosphere each week dose 50mSv / h and is shielded from some, I think 10 times and a half turns in Group 1 quintile. Max exposure in the media like disciples were 3.7 mSv.

Happy20790 Happy
@
Banwa (^ O ^) @ Kuro_Cyann777 cameras and endoscopes I'm the best in the country耐放(;_;) any topic in the topic now ... Olympus.

Happy20790 Happy
But wait if (^ O ^) and well understood topic in today's video explanation above part of Unit 2 photos yesterday'll (;_;) topic in different Sabu did yesterday. Corrosion of plumbing pipe corrosion of carbon SUS is not seen but is indeed quite advanced. 10 years after starting off ゙゙リ fuel taken out have never think.

Happy20790 Happy
1 more: go get the paint and corrosion of the wall that I lifted it over the system specifications of the wall paint seven PCV. I'm was very high temperatures. Airlock and equipment hatch from thin'm more worried about .... I'll bet ... Not even rubber gasket.

Happy20790 Happy
4 Continued: I Did oiler to report a broken pipe exploded What could accumulate in the piping of the hydrogen torus think I've got it wrong I do not. Oiler is the piping of the torus What I do not think I will not split the low part ゙ He'd have to absorb part of the condominiums Ekisuha ° of the pipe expands and contracts.

Happy20790 Happy
5 more: He ゙ part that I'm weak low of only about 3mm in thickness. I've got to clear depending on which position is broken ... I know it is a long way, become unsolved topic in yours are encased in concrete underground.
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:19:56 PM

@Ian that is what I got out of his email. I thought it was a strange opinion based on all the other info we know
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:20:28 PM

by dean 1/20/2012 3:21:12 PM

www.ucsusa.org
by dean 1/20/2012 3:21:18 PM

just a note on the source of water.. on that attachment do a word search for spray and it will lead to a typical crossection of bwr mark 1 showing the location of the containment spray and from the image shown, this could be the source of the water.
by dean 1/20/2012 3:22:59 PM

Tweets from Sunny:
sunnysunnynismo Mr. TS
It is quite familiar with us (° °;)　@ Kouji0503 : earlier, in comments recorded in the D / W-2 Unit 1F yesterday on news of TV, there was a comment that melted fuel and other見当Taranakatta But, the location of the fuel melted fallen, from the bottom of the pedestal I have more in the D / W. "

sunnysunnynismo Mr. TS
PCV has an internal image of thrill in a long time. I remembered the pictures of white spots Puripyachi. Shooting fuels to think very Kolya. In the building (^ ^) need not be removed efficiently.
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:24:18 PM

@dean if TEPCO was running containment spray wouldn't they have turned it off during the inspection?
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:25:26 PM

@lilly, not necessarily if they were using the camera only, they probably had no idea where the spray would be withing the containment vessel nor if it still really worked or not. The application where I've seen these types of spray systems used are to take isotopes out of the air from accidents, very good system to remove iodines.
by dean 1/20/2012 3:27:29 PM

This is the image from Dean's document. I noticed they show a vent pipe from containment to the floor below the refueling floor?

www.simplyinfo.org
by lillymunster via Simplyinfo.org 1/20/2012 3:32:57 PM

the containment spray systems are capable of delivering 3-4000 gpm of water through a series of nozzles at normal ambient temperature. the water can also contain sodium hydroxide or hydrazine to provide removal of iodine from the containment atmosphere in case of fuel melts
by dean 1/20/2012 3:35:02 PM

@lillymunster, some of his opinions are odd. He countered my suggestion of an ex-vessel steam explosion @ U3 by arguing that it should have blown out tons of fuel like at Chernobyl. But there's no reason to assume that at all, an ex-vessel explosion is by definition outside the RPV, and so the only fuel that need be blown out would be the first drop(s) of blazing-hot corium falling into a flooded drywell, and that could be a relatively very small amount. And that's not my theory, it's in the professional literature.
by Ian via Iangoddard 1/20/2012 3:35:14 PM

Sorry, I thought a text-embedded link to a graphic wouldn't display.
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:35:59 PM

@dean, though to Peter's point, the spray system is probably inside the RPV, as shown here motherjones.com
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:45:48 PM

But it does seem like an awful lot of 'rain' to just be dripping condensation.
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:47:12 PM

@Ian, I've been in facilities where the building spray system is tested and every thing gets wet,, now this isn't a BWR plant, if they had that system running though, there could have been up to 4000 gpm spraying all over and within time, I can see maybe what Lilly was staying about the water forming up above at the curve transition of the containment wall and then dripping. or over the piping which isn't shown very well in the photo's but is there. also, most times the camera is going to exagerate the image depending on what power it's on and make it look like a rain forrest.
by dean 1/20/2012 3:51:36 PM

Per Sen Schumer PIPA legislation has been pulled from Congress
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:52:36 PM

I will return.. time for PT... enjoy
by dean 1/20/2012 3:53:00 PM

Should have Unit 2 videos on Youtube when you return Dean. :-)
by lillymunster 1/20/2012 3:53:58 PM

We needn't speculate too much now. I suspect there will be more data forthcoming and eventually official explanations we can evaluate once we get a better idea of what the heck we're looking at.
by Ian 1/20/2012 3:58:14 PM