Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 857

@es I would think, that decision has been made for Japan by potential buyers for now..
by VeenOui 4/26/2011 11:27:17 PM

@es Ah the marriage was short
by elainekirk 4/26/2011 11:27:23 PM

@VeenOui @elainekirk Besides, it looks like they're gonna need all the expertise and parts they've got.
by es 4/26/2011 11:31:33 PM

Power for reactor cooling lacking
Nuke plants' backups fall way short... search.japantimes.co.jp
" Most nuclear reactors in Japan would fail to achieve a stable condition in the event that all regular power sources are lost, even though plant operators have prepared new backup power sources as well as electric generators amid the crisis at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant, according to utility industry sources.
The possibility of a failure to secure the safety of the reactors is because the backup power sources do not have enough capacity to operate all of the devices needed to keep the reactors cool.

Many reactors still effectively have no alternative power source should emergency diesel generators fail to work, as was the case at the Fukushima plant after it was hit by a magnitude 9.0 earthquake and tsunami on March 11."
by Reed 4/26/2011 11:33:15 PM

@es they need the expertise but until they take tepco out of the drivers seat there isn't much hope of it being put to good use
by elainekirk 4/26/2011 11:34:00 PM

@elainkirk Sadly I can't see that there's anyone who'd manage the fiasco any better.
by es 4/26/2011 11:36:52 PM

@es exactly, while we all make criticism from a secure point of view, there are a few thousand ppl fighting with their lives over there, let's admire that.
by talisker 4/26/2011 11:40:24 PM

by e123 4/26/2011 11:40:54 PM

elaine.. the techis better get their calculators out... I'm trying to put together some information to loook at equivalency of explosion in #3 to TNT
by dean 4/26/2011 11:41:01 PM

@talisker Heroes. All of them.
by es 4/26/2011 11:41:26 PM

@dean that sounds like fun ...and way out of my league :) but I will enjoy watching
by elainekirk 4/26/2011 11:42:02 PM

Tepco said likely to survive crisis,
Legal loophole may keep top power provider roughly intact
search.japantimes.co.jp
" The company will likely seek limits on its liability based on the 1961 Act on Compensation for Nuclear Damage. It exempts plant operators from paying compensation for accidents caused by a "grave natural disaster of an exceptional character or by an insurrection." "
by Reed 4/26/2011 11:42:06 PM

It is too bad that the people who made all the bad decisions are not the ones paying the price.
by Ralph Unger 4/26/2011 11:42:36 PM

@Reed @All, TEPCO may make the claim that this 'combination' disaster was so unforeseen that they should not be held responsible, but as this board has discussed a few times, exactly such a 'combination' disaster *has* been specifically foreseen, and eve given a name: Genpatsu-shinsai, Catastrophic Multiple Disaster of Earthquake and Quake-induced Nuclear Accident: historical.seismology.jp
by Askwhy 4/26/2011 11:47:31 PM

@reed there is much doubt that they acted in a timely manner in addressing the need for modifications to ensure the plant was able to withstand a strong quake/tsunami they knew new seismic studies were demanded of all plants in '06 and the '07 quake that took out another tepco plant led to the reforms being chased up but although the damaged plant was modified Tepco as far as I am aware never actually commenced work though they did do the surveys the results of which led @marie to comment... I wonder if I can find her observation I will go look :)

by elainekirk 4/26/2011 11:47:54 PM

@Reed @all in one of his first vids, that guy at fairwinds, Gundersen, said that even if the diesel generators had worked the cooling function would still fail, because the service pumps used at the sea inlets were destroyed by the tsunami, hence unable to deliver cool water to the reactors. Is this the case?
by talisker 4/26/2011 11:49:53 PM

Sorry, but I can't resist asking: Feel Sorry for Tokyo Electric Power Co? : mises.org
by es edited by elainekirk 4/26/2011 11:50:41 PM

@elainekirk It's not just TEPCO, it's every Japanese utility company using nuclear reactors to generate electrical power. It just happens that TEPCO got the short end of the stick this time around and failed the test.
by James Ward 4/26/2011 11:51:23 PM

Yep and the fuel tanks were destroyed as well. At Dainii they were protected by walls from the water.SO only 1 failed. They were still building the wall on that one.
by Ralph Unger 4/26/2011 11:51:49 PM

So Tepco's liabilty is huge, they knew about the problem as they addressed it at other plants.
by Ralph Unger 4/26/2011 11:52:59 PM

@All, From a good article on Genpatsu-shinsai following the 2007 quake ( www.timesonline.co.uk ): "The phrase, derived from the Japanese words for “nuclear power” and “quake disaster”, is the creation of Katsuhiko Ishibashi, Japan’s leading seismologist and one of the Government’s top advisers on nuclear-quake safety. He said that the world may never know how close it came to its first genpatsu-shinsai this week [in 2007]. Luck, as much an anything else, helped to avert it." Also "As it is, the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) has admitted to a worrying series of problems since the [2007] quake, including the stunning revelation that the Kashiwazaki plant was constructed on top of an active fault – despite Tepco’s firm denials in court that this was the case. Vital reactor data on the minutes immediately after the quake have already been lost by Tepco. Numerous leaks of radiation have been detected."
by Askwhy 4/26/2011 11:54:35 PM

@Ralph Unger Reactors 5 & 6 appear to have been built at a higher elevation at Fukushima Daiichi. If true, that would be another smoking gun that TEPCO knew they would have a problem with a tsunami larger than design specs.
by James Ward 4/26/2011 11:56:37 PM

@es Great mind speak !
by VeenOui 4/26/2011 11:57:13 PM

hey ralph... and askwhy
by dean 4/26/2011 11:57:45 PM

elaine I posted a paragraph on the other site for a start point
by dean 4/26/2011 11:59:05 PM

@elainekirk As your research has shownn, TEPCo has been notoriously negligent.
@talisker TEPCo simply bet that there would never be a combination of failures.
by Reed 4/27/2011 12:04:21 AM

@ekaine Residents flee, schools close as volcano spews ashes in Ecuador - CNN bit.ly
by VeenOui edited by elainekirk 4/27/2011 12:04:54 AM

@es a brilliant piece
by elainekirk 4/27/2011 12:05:30 AM

@dean Hello. Talisker just asked a good question regarding the destroyed service pumps. Can you please help answer that one for us? Thanks.
by Reed 4/27/2011 12:07:01 AM

Go ahead and delete, i just posted to get the info across.i am ok with it )
by VeenOui 4/27/2011 12:07:53 AM

Reed, I had thought james had answered it... those pumps and all the gear at the service building were flooded, switchgear fried so they would have had a small amount of water from the service pool with no make up
by dean 4/27/2011 12:09:34 AM

@veenoui it is good what I am wondering is does it/where is it in respect of fault lines /north american plate?
by elainekirk 4/27/2011 12:10:57 AM

@elainekirk Dunno, however, we were watching the Chilenean one and it is on same continent same side .
by VeenOui 4/27/2011 12:11:53 AM

@dean Thank you. So, even if the diesel generators were not destroyed, the water from the service pool combined with fully functional turbines wouldn't have been enough to cool the reactors?
by Reed 4/27/2011 12:19:44 AM

right Reed
by dean 4/27/2011 12:20:36 AM

the diesel fuel tanks were on the waterside and were washed away which would have created a problem even if the tsunami hadnt breeched defenses , if the power had gone
by elainekirk 4/27/2011 12:24:06 AM

the plants have to treat the ocean water and get it to a chemistry requirement to be used for the makeup pumps to the reactor system for makeup water ... Not quiet sure what all the diesels powered but one would think it would power the necessary safety related systems to provide water to the reactor and flow to cool, backed up with the BATTERIES... which is a good point.. most battery areas have have ventillation running to strip off the hydrogen from the batteries.. they have hydrogen detectors and some times fire suppression systems,,, but they can also have enough h2 to explode
by dean 4/27/2011 12:24:34 AM

@elainekirk IF I remember this correctly, three Diesel's were supposed to be behind a 14ft wall, they never completed the third ?
by VeenOui 4/27/2011 12:25:44 AM

That was at Dainii Veen.
by Ralph Unger 4/27/2011 12:26:08 AM

@Ralph Unger Ok thanks, i wasn't sure.
by VeenOui 4/27/2011 12:26:41 AM

@dean thanks for clarifying that
by talisker 4/27/2011 12:28:55 AM

They use a heat exchanger to cool the water in the reactors with seawater. the two should never mix.
by Ralph Unger 4/27/2011 12:29:06 AM

dinner time.. will return
by dean 4/27/2011 12:29:06 AM

yw talisker
by dean 4/27/2011 12:29:10 AM

@reed this is the tepco year end 31st march 2010 report it is pdf and I cant copy paster but if you search fukushima the first result says that they are still carrying out seismic evaluations . They were asked to do this and report by Sept 2007, that was extended to March 2008 at their request and yet in 2010 they still havent completed the evaluations.... www.tepco.co.jp
by elainekirk 4/27/2011 12:30:45 AM