Japan Earthquake | Page 1690

  • @lillymunster , telling from the news tepco must have upgraded to some forms of hard venting in Fukushima. There was a theory that the vents for hardened venting in unit 1 did not close properly allowing backflow of hydrogen into the building. The other indication is the report that they sent crew for venting in units 2 and 3.
    by Peter Melzer 6/19/2011 2:02:03 PM

  • www.anengineerindc.com @Peter, check the first part of the comments on this link.. interesting about the condensor
    by dean 6/19/2011 2:09:10 PM

  • @dean, the drawing on Physics Forum is interesting. IIRC the initial first blast at 3 was the SFP side wall going out before the big upward blast. Leaking out toward the SFP would seem to be a path of least resistance.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:09:53 PM

  • yes @lilly and he put in the photo of the explosion
    by dean 6/19/2011 2:10:29 PM

  • I better head off,,, will return
    by dean 6/19/2011 2:15:52 PM

  • I was reading the WSJ article about testing for radiation in some towns trying to determine where the hots spots are. They mentioned people being in their houses lowers their exposure. I have also been following a Japan based housing blog. Lots of the homes from the 60's to present is really cheap construction. Frequently lacks insulation and has single pane aluminum framed windows. So some of the housing probably is not very effective at sealing people off from radiation, dust and air.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:20:52 PM

  • by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:20:59 PM

  • Hi all! @Lilly I lived in Tokyo in the early 80's and remember well driving from the countryside watching houses go up in a day or 2...quick and cheap. It always amazed me!
    by LM 6/19/2011 2:23:22 PM

  • www.ravingravens.com
    @Nancy @LM just a reminder of the pic from Iceland where houses are very well insulated after a day of ash fall from the volcano
    by ElaineKirk 6/19/2011 2:31:13 PM

  • scrap that nancy I will try again
    by ElaineKirk 6/19/2011 2:31:49 PM

  • @LM It seems to be the lower priced mass produced houses and vacation homes that are the really shoddy ones. They also mentioned much of the housing built in the 80's and 90's was planned to only last 30 years.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:43:28 PM

  • @Lilly I believe that. The homes where we lived in Tokyo were much higher quality. It seemed like the larger planned communities were thrown up in a week and tended to be in the suburbs.
    by LM 6/19/2011 2:46:03 PM

  • Cooper Station NPP in Brownsville NE has gone into "Unusual Event" status (lowest level event status) due to rising water levels. If the water levels rise to their next documented height they will shut down the plant. www.wowt.com
    Cooper Station web site
    www.nppd.com
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:49:25 PM

  • @LM the people who run the blog are looking to buy a house for cash and fix it up and are looking outside Tokyo into the suburban and rural areas. We have the same type of insta-houses from the 70's and 80's in certain neighborhoods and they are falling apart or needing extensive work.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 2:51:07 PM

  • @Lilly I grew up on Long Island and didn't see that before moving to Japan, but it seems to be far more common here in California. Another difference.... I noticed that the pre-fab housing also tended to have one high powered fan near the ceiling in one room that was responsible for heating the whole house. Blowing dust would be an issue.
    by LM 6/19/2011 3:00:33 PM

  • @LM The blog talked about the common use of room heaters and ac units rather than whole house heating like is common in the US up north. Every house up here has either a forced air furnace or steam heat system built in. When I lived in CA having a panel unit in the middle of the house for heat and central air was pretty common. Any system that uses air to circulate the heat is going to blow dust around and suck in outside air.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:09:21 PM

  • What about this scenario regarding the unit #3 explosion: 1. hydrogen from the SFP ignites. 2. explosion damages the containment. 3. Hydrogen in containment ignites. 4. Big upwards hydrogen explosion.
    by WolfDK 6/19/2011 3:09:35 PM

  • @Lilly So true. I was shocked by the fan approach to heating in Japan. It's incredibly drying as well. My parents and I tended to avoid that room because it was unbearable. Luckily that was a temporary living arrangement outside Yokota Air Base...we moved into Tokyo after 3 months and had radiators in that house...I remember them calling it a more 'western' home.
    by LM 6/19/2011 3:13:53 PM

  • @WolfDK I think that may be the chain of events. The drawing Dean pointed to this morning thought that whatever space might be between the reactor well and the SFP could have leaked hydrogen. IIRC there is some sort of venting pipe at the top of the RPV that leads out of containment. If that broke or cracked during the quake it could have added to hydrogen build up. That drawing also looked at some other piping that could have cracked and leaked hydrogen. The GE tests from way back mention that at a certain point the pressure in the RPV can cause leaks out the gasket the RPV cap seats on.
    What I don't know is if the MOX rods could have accelerated the process. I found some claims that the process used to make those rods could cause hot spots that would degrade or crack, blister the cladding. So between the longer time frame and bad cladding maybe there was just more hydrogen being produced. I do still wonder if the ongoing high heat and volatility at #3 could be being made worse by the MOX rods in the core.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:15:28 PM

  • @LM all the subtle differences and some of the unique approaches to home systems and design are really interesting. The people that right the blog currently live in "UR" apartments and talk about them plus some of the higher end condos in Tokyo. From what I have read so far there seems to be some energy waste but it seems to be an incarnation of the same kinds of energy waste in the US. I think there is lots to learn both from the differences in design and also the sudden need for energy savings. This is the blog catforehead.wordpress.com
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:19:39 PM

  • has anybody ever calculated how many becquerels there are in the coriums and what it would mean to nature if this all gets into the ocean ? i mean, it's time to talk about that.
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:24:27 PM

  • They must have watered #4, it's doing the steam dance
    by M.I.A. 6/19/2011 3:25:02 PM

  • maybe we could estimate the radiation on the base of chernobyl.
    by Edano edited by Edano 6/19/2011 3:25:21 PM

  • @lillymunster , I recall the gasket between the primary containment and the yellow cap believed to be the culprit where the hydrogen escaped.
    by Peter Melzer 6/19/2011 3:28:35 PM

  • @Peter Melzer There are known leaks in that one. It showed up on some of the early overhead images and heat images where steam and heat were escaping. It made jets of steam. So both could have been leaking adding to the build up.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:30:05 PM

  • TEPCO opens doors at No.2 reactor

    Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has opened the doors and begun ventilation at the No. 2 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

    The restoration work inside the No. 2 reactor has been hampered by humidity of almost 100 percent due to steam from the containment vessel and spent-fuel storage pool.

    TEPCO opened the doors halfway at 8:51 PM on Sunday. It plans to fully open them at 4 AM on Monday if there are no problems.

    The utility has been using an air purification device for more than a week to reduce the radioactive concentration inside the building.

    The firm calculated that the level of background radiation around the plant after opening the doors would be 0.0014 microsieverts per hour. The annualized figure would be far below the permissible limit of one millisievert a year.

    A TEPCO official told reporters on Sunday that the planned door-opening will have almost no impact on the nearby environment.

    TEPCO says it has explained the plan to Fukushima Prefecture and 13 local municipalities. It says that when the doors are fully open, it will begin checking radiation levels and adjusting meters inside the building.

    Monday, June 20, 2011 00:03 +0900 (JST)
    www3.nhk.or.jp
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:32:51 PM

  • @Edano. Is there a way to estimate total radiation based on the rod assemblies? How much exists in the rods, how much is additional generated by reactions? This gets into the scientific part of things that is way over my head.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:33:01 PM

  • @lillymunster : it should be equivalent to the energy it produces. so if we know how many watts a rod makes and compare it to chernobyl, we should be able to estimate the radiation.
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:36:24 PM

  • @you : i'm sure goj has scenarios elaborated. or greenpeace. or iaea.
    by Edano edited by Edano 6/19/2011 3:37:35 PM

  • @lillymunster , the rpv must have cracked open for sure to release the hydrogen into the primary containment, but then this gasket was supposed to have lifted. Those professors presenting at the CNIC event knew about this. What I thought was interesting in the post from the physics forum was the idea that the thrust of the first explosion was partially guided downwards into the lower building and out of the refueling bay (according to design) and also sideways (perhaps through the canal) into the sfp.
    by Peter Melzer 6/19/2011 3:45:30 PM

  • @Lilly Thanks for the link!
    by LM 6/19/2011 3:45:54 PM

  • "To explain this for a series of fuel pellets being used with a rim temperature of 200 °C (typical for a BWR) with different diameters and power densities of 250 MW·m−3 have been modeled using the above equation. Note that these fuel pellets are rather large; it is normal to use oxide pellets which are about 10 mm in diameter." en.wikipedia.org
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:47:10 PM

  • Morning
    Fukushima1 React2 double door already opened. 1800millionBq expectd (3.5 times Rc1) TEPCO: NOT influence on environment. translate.google.com
    by Veenie 6/19/2011 3:47:45 PM

  • @Edano , the quest for the source term is another sticky point. I saw in the NRC guidelines that operators must report estimates for the radioactive inventory of the plant before they wish to start up a reactor. If the required protocol in Japan is similar, NISA and tepco have got that information. Thunder was trying so hard to reconstruct this with some computer simulation package. There were too many unknowns.
    by Peter Melzer 6/19/2011 3:50:04 PM

  • @Veenie , we should watch the monitors overhere.
    by Peter Melzer 6/19/2011 3:51:51 PM

  • @Peter Melzer : there sure are lots of unknowns. but i would like to have a slight idea, a TBq number.
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:52:26 PM

  • Yikes! That sounds like a large release. We no longer have frequent air filter tests here in the US but there are still operating counters on the coast. Anyone know the average days to make it across the pacific?
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 3:57:00 PM

  • 6 days to west coast
    by Veenie 6/19/2011 3:57:25 PM

  • @lillymunster : 1 week
    by Edano 6/19/2011 3:57:27 PM

  • They have a box filter test coming up soon. Some date in late June. They are back to quarterly testing.
    by lillymunster 6/19/2011 4:00:29 PM

  • I am just wondering, the ongoing winds in SoCal for example, if the wind keeps blowing in from Coast line....... i mean everyone in SoCal is observing the same abnormal windy conditions....we have been having massive wind gust's here in my area unseen for months
    by Veenie 6/19/2011 4:00:29 PM

  • Uhmm, sorry what i meant to ponder is if the winds come from the ocean this stron, if it takes less time
    by Veenie 6/19/2011 4:01:13 PM

  • Coffe time for me
    by Veenie 6/19/2011 4:01:28 PM

  • Japan Strains to Fix a Reactor Damaged Before Quake
    Three hundred miles southwest of Fukushima, at a nuclear reactor perched on the slopes of this rustic peninsula, engineers are engaged in another precarious struggle.

    The Monju prototype fast-breeder reactor — a long-troubled national project — has been in a precarious state of shutdown since a 3.3-ton device crashed into the reactor’s inner vessel, cutting off access to the plutonium and uranium fuel rods at its core.

    Engineers have tried repeatedly since the accident last August to recover the device, which appears to have gotten stuck. They will make another attempt as early as next week.

    The plant, a $12 billion project, has a history of safety lapses. It was shuttered for 14 years after a devastating fire in 1995, one of Japan’s most serious nuclear accidents before this year’s crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. Prefecture and city officials found that the operator had tampered with video images of the fire to hide the scale of the disaster. A top manager at the plant recently committed suicide, on the day that Japan’s atomic energy agency announced that efforts to recover the device would cost almost $21.9 million. And, like several other reactors, Monju lies on an active fault.

    More: www.nytimes.com
    by joniver 6/19/2011 4:02:09 PM

  • @Peter Melzer : it is indeed hard to estimate, e.g. you have to take in account for how long the fuel has been in operation ....
    by Edano 6/19/2011 4:03:17 PM

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