Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 1068

@RBeaner I made no specific statement about any organization. I did say that making sweeping generalizations that anything done by a committee is automatically junk is a lousy metric for the value of the final product.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:06:53 PM

@all Hi everybody, I received this link www.youtube.com with comments of Mishio Ishikawa about Fukushima telling. There is a partial translation in french www.dailymotion.com and an other translation in a blog in english ex-skf.blogspot.com "I think all the fuel rods have been melted down" What do you think about it?
by Olivier edited by elainekirk 5/9/2011 7:08:08 PM

@RBeaner:
It's like you need more references, well, some more:

References
Akulich N.S., Gerasymovich G.I. 1993. Indices of physical development of newborns after
law dose irradiation. “Belarusian Children Health under modern ecological
conditions (Consequences of the Chernobyl catastrophe)”. VI Pediatric Congress
of Belarus, Coll. Papers, Minsk, p.9 (in Russian).
Alexievich S. 1997. Chernobyl prayer (chronic for future). Moscow, Publ. “Ostozh’e”,
223 p. (in Russian).
Alymov N.I., Pavlov A.Yu., Sedunov S.G., Gorshenin A.V., Popovich V.I., Loskutova
N.D., Belobrovkin E.A. 2004. Immune system at person living on the Chernobyl
irradiated territories. Russ. Sci.- Pract. Conf.: «Med.- Biol. Problems of Radioand
Chemical Protection., 20 - 21 May, 2004, Sant-Peterburg, Russia”, , Coll.
Papers, Sank-Peterburg, pp. 45 – 46 (in Russian).
Antipkin Yu.G., Arabskaya L.P. 2001. 3rd Int. Conf. “Medical consequences of the
Chernobyl catastrophe: the results of 15 years investigations”, 4 - 8 June, Kiev,
Ukraine”, Abstracts, Kiev, pp. 151 – 152 (in Russian).
Antonov E.Z., Ostreiko N.N. 1995. Lymph-adenoid ring’ condition and children’
enterobiosis in Gomel. Int. Sci. Conf. devoted by 5-th years establishing of the
State Gomel Med. Ins., 9 – 10 November, 1995, Gomel, Belarus”, Materials,
Gomel, pp. 86 – 87 (in Russian).
Antypova S.I. Babichevskaya A.I. 2001. Belarusian adult mortality of the evacuees. 3rd Int.
Conf. “Medical consequences of the Chernobyl catastrophe: the results of 15-years
Researches, 4 - 8 June, 2001, Kiev, Ukraine”, Abstracts, Kiev, pp. 152 – 153 (in
Russian).
Arynchin А.N., Krotkaya N.А., Bortnik О.М. 1996. Brain circulation at children living on
the radioactive contaminated territories of Belarus. Inter. Sci. Conf.: “10 years
after the Chernobyl catastrophe (scientific aspects of problem). 28 - 29 February
1996, Minsk, Belarus”, Abstracts, Minsk, p. 13 (in Russian).
Arynchin A.N., Avhacheva T.V., Gres N.A., Slobozhanina E.I. 2002. Health State of
Belarusian Children suffering from the Chernobyl Accident: Sixteen Years after
the Catastrophe. In: Imanaka T. (Ed.). Recent Research Activities about the
Chernobyl Accident in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. Res. Reactor Institute, Kyoto
University (KURRI-KR-79), Kyoto, pp. 231- 240.
Astachova L.N., Demidchik E.P., Polyanskaya O.N. 1995. The main radiation risk’ system:
Thyroid carcinoma at Belarusian children after the Chernobyl accident. IV Int.
Conf. : “Chernobyl catastrophe: Prognosis, prophylactics, treatment and medicalpsychological
rehabilitation of suffers.” Collect. Materials., Minsk, pp. 119 — 127
(in Russian).
Babych T., Lypchanska L.F. 1994. State of hyphophisis – thyroid system women under low
radiation impact. “Functional methods in obstetrician and gynecology”, Sci.-
Pract. Conf. Ukrainian obstetr.-gynecologists, 19—20 May, 1994, Donetsk,
Ukraine”, Abstracts, Donetsk, p. 9 (in Ukrainian).
Baeva E.V., Sokolenko V.L. 1998. Т-lymphocyte’s surface marker’s expression after low
dose irradiation. Immunol., № 3, pp. 56 - 59 (in Russian).
by estacion 5/9/2011 7:09:01 PM

@LM "every study should be considered" I completely agree, But study infers protocols and repeatable data. I agree with BEIRV VII and that the limits currently being Imposed on Japans children is an attrocity, and the GOJ knows it. That is why their Nuclear Advisor resigned the other day.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 7:09:12 PM

@Nancy I understand that, but think of the smallest and largest commitee you have seen or been involved in. They try to involve someone from "every" point of view. The whacked out always get at least one representative. We had a committee decide on the playground and once built, the kids didn't want to play on it. No disparagement, but we had a playground (very expensive mind you), that was designed for handicapped kids that didn't play much. I believe this mindyourdecisions.com is a more often than not outcome of comittees
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 7:16:29 PM

@estacion Hey I'm not russian, but here is the SCIENTIFIC report of the UN on chernobyl www.unscear.org . My main point being scientific, where the data points are released and the outcome is mathematically reproducable. Am I alone on this? Are we all now accepting aliens as the source of our disaster at Fukushima? I'm getting frazzled.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 7:24:59 PM

Tuesday, May 10, 2011

More Fukushima veggies banned
Kyodo
The government Monday banned the shipment of bamboo shoots and "kogomi" wild vegetables from parts of Fukushima Prefecture after some were found to have unsafe levels of radioactive cesium.

The Fukushima government has already asked producers to refrain from shipping vegetables grown near the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant.

Bamboo shoots subject to the restriction are those from Date, Soma, Iwaki, Miharu, Tenei and Hirata municipalities. The kogomi vegetables are from the city of Fukushima and town of Kori.

Bamboo shoots taken in Iwaki were found to have 650 becquerels of cesium per kilogram on April 27, and a level of 770 becquerels was found in kogomi taken in the prefectural capital on April 28, surpassing the safety limit of 500 becquerels.
search.japantimes.co.jp
by elainekirk 5/9/2011 7:26:38 PM

@RBeaner Even the experts have doubts. No study is ever truly definitive because we are constantly developing new technologies and learning more as a result. It is naive to assume that because a few studies don't show a statistical increase therefore there isn't one. We know that radiation exposure is mutagenic. That should be the red flag. More studies need to be done with better technologies before I assume that all is well..look away. Even the BEIR says that no level of radiation is safe.
by LM 5/9/2011 7:28:04 PM

@all I fail to see the point of doing anything to cut down the wide field of information we've had to be culling to know anything at all by this point. This is crowd-sourced information retrieval and analysis. We've found gems in unexpected places, and drivel from official sources. Peer-reviewed? What peers? GoJ? TEPCO? JAIF? NISA? EPA? This is more Socratic method than peer-reviewed journaling we're doing here. We waste energy trying to adhere to "normal" standards when even those in the know don't know what's going on.

I find the division between "techie" and "chatty" can morph into a feeling of validity and invalidity to some of us. Often, things I drop in here came straight out of discussions on the "unscientific" board. Then I go back and see feelings like I abandoned that discussion to come over here and post findings.

This form of search, retrieval and dissection is being invented as we do it. So if something doesn't seem to fit your personal research paradigm, unless you think it's leading us seriously astray, maybe this is an opportunity to broaden your paradigm. We're sifting. Limiting the sift limits the findings.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 7:29:46 PM

The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) published a report in 2006 titled “Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation (BEIR) report, VII Phase 2.” NAS BEIR VII was an expert panel that reviewed available peer reviewed literature and wrote, “The committee concludes that the preponderance of information indicates that there will be some risk, even at low doses.”
by LM 5/9/2011 7:30:32 PM

@Olivier Salut Olivier! Je veux vous dire Merci pour vos comments et vos links.
Mishio Ishikawa has a strange perspective on the state of things without a doubt. He is part guilty propagandist for the nuclear industry and part old man with a love for the media and little to lose.
by Reed 5/9/2011 7:33:46 PM

Are you guys paying attention to EQ's right now ? massive
by Veen Oui 5/9/2011 7:34:47 PM

Here is another tidbit from the industry. So one hour of generator power after the quake. The generator shut down 5 minutes after they tried the emergency cooling. Battery power was still available. Interestingly, transportable generators were brought in within the next nine hours according to this source: www.world-nuclear-news.org .
by Peter Melzer 5/9/2011 7:35:00 PM

@Veen Oui Yes, and still only ONE in 28 hours in Honsu.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 7:36:48 PM

@Reed Yes it's a fascinating mix in a personality, and adds great credibility to what he says. Fascinating. Thanks Oliver.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 7:37:50 PM

@LM I agree with the BEIR report., but what you should take out of it IMHO is that the risk is so slight, that even with these sophisticated, in-depth studies, at low level, there was no seen effect. They extrapolate an effect, because none is measurable. That is where LNT(Linear No Threshold) concept comes from. They basically gave up on the real, scientific data they had and said , this is the worst case we can come up with, even though we can't measure it. I'm ok with that, it at least gives us a starting point. This is supposed to be the newsy TECHY forum. Am I in my own imaginary world of science.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 7:37:53 PM

@RBeaner I'm all for science...trust me...I just feel the last word has not been spoken. There are too many parameters to be accounted for. I agree that current science says we shouldn't be overly concerned..particularly where we live..I am not an alarmist. I just don't think we can say that the current studies have ended the conversation. Now....we should move on. No one should be belittled for being concerned on these 2 sites.
by LM 5/9/2011 7:43:31 PM

So UN isn't a commitee, uhmm...

If you read the scientific readings that some of us are telling you, you can understand why UN downplayed its "first redaction" of its own report.
Nuclear Cartel is a powerful one, no Statment want distress them.
Science is a method and practice, and that's what scientists used that part of the world, because no other nationalities was there to do, only those Russians and people from Eastern Europe. Chernobyl was the first event on a planetary scale.

Reproducibility, well ... Fukushima is the second time to test and maybe you can accept it. Time will tell.
by estacion 5/9/2011 7:44:34 PM

@elainekirk I would like to know if these include canned for export items. How are they still shipping produce from the region? Maybe part of the govt. stick your head in the sand approach? Seems like their tactic is going to result in more pulled food, that will increase the distrust in the food supply. Maybe a better idea is to compensate all the farmers in the region for their crops and animal products and not let anything out of the zone be sold?
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:47:50 PM

@Nancy Yes, when people are worried about your candor that's no time to try to go evasive on them.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 7:50:58 PM

I had lots of experience trying to wade through medical findings that is akin to the radiation information. You have vested interests putting out blatantly tainted information, half tainted information, crazy unsubstantiated theory, and magical thinking. Somewhere between all of this is some relatively unbiased information based on factual investigation, methods and findings. Having at least a little bit of medical/scientific background made it easier to sort through. It made it easier to identify pure BS with no factual basis or a very flawed factual basis. I think some of this is the same in a way to sorting through all the medical information out there right now. Somewhere in the middle tends to be the truth, but you have to really dig to determine the quality of your source.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:52:50 PM

@radioguy Compensating farmers for at least one year up front would make life easier on them in the short term, put some cash in the local economy (where people are displaced to) and ensure the food supply is more reliable. The cash outlay would be peanuts compared to some of what will end up spent on this whole mess.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:54:32 PM

@Nancy So true. Having worked in labs for years, I know first hand that many studies are financially supported by the people who have a personal interest in the results. A definite problem all around the globe. Being an investigator is important.
by LM 5/9/2011 7:56:43 PM

RBeaner - Wow, we are really opening a can of worms here aren't we? Deep breath. I hear you. We all want the "truth", we all want accuracy. None of us want to be passing on or believing things that are false. I believe that is what you sincerely want, something you can trust. I think the rest of the group does too. We all want GOOD sources. It would be nice if we had them. Sources that have studied this over a long period of time, not connected with a specific incident. Lets see......we would want 1) nothing connected with any govt. 2) Nothing funded by grants/corp/companies 3) nothing international in nature ....because we have seen how absurd the conclusions of those reports can be. We should rule all of the above out whether they admit it or not will have conflicts of interest whether monetary or political. Oh and 4) Nothing connected to institutions because they usually have some of the above connections. And yup things really can get twisted around in committees. BUT aren't most credentialed scientists connected in some way or other to the above? How do they pay the bills if not? It is extremely unfortunate that our system works this way - that most of the experts in an area work for an entity with an investment in that area. So am I saying that they are all corrupt? No. But I am saying bias has an incredible way of worming into all our lives, sometimes when we least expect it and the scientific method does not give failsafe protection from it. It goes a long way to helping......but not infallible. I think where many have an issue is the stance that since we haven't conclusively proven that X is harmful, therefore it is not. Ummmm......that doesn't make me feel safe. I would like to see something that proves it is not harmful before you prescribe it to me, or fill our oceans with it or our air. So out of our frustration we grab at bad science to voice the doubt that maybe we should take a step back and do more research before we declare all is well.
by dyan 5/9/2011 7:56:47 PM

LOL, the Raelians weigh in on Fukushima. This actually came in a news delivery. www.prnewswire.com
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:58:03 PM

PEER takes on the EPA over monitoring www.enewspf.com
by Nancy 5/9/2011 7:59:37 PM

I discovered my timeline was one hour off. The generator reportedly failed at 15:41. The attempt to start emergency cooling was carried out 16:36. Could the operators attempt emergency cooling on battery power alone?
by Peter Melzer 5/9/2011 8:00:27 PM

@Peter Melzer There were already concerns that the generators did not have sufficient power to run the cooling. If that is true the batteries would likely struggle even more unless their battery system was bigger than the generator capacity.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 8:02:15 PM

@Peter Melzer @Nancy sorry if i missed it, but do we have a link to the info on the lack of power capcity... i think i have the timeline
by fitter 5/9/2011 8:07:10 PM

@Peter Melzer No that source says they lost gens at ~ 1 hr, which is when the tsunami hit, CAN we please get back to posting sources, there may not be as much to post, but GIGO does apply. The batteries were rated to power the reactor ECCS for 8 hours, and the gens for another 8 days, but that all got wiped by the wave.
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 8:08:58 PM

@Peter Melzer That startup energy draw for all those big electrical systems would knock the hell out of the batteries.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 8:09:03 PM

@Nancy , if you look closely at the tepco release that beaner kindly posted: www.tepco.co.jp . The generator failed at 15:41, and the operator decided to notify government at 15:42. I find it difficult to believe that in an organization like this a decision of such magnitude can be made in a minute. It would take at least one phone call with Tokyo, would not it?
by Peter Melzer 5/9/2011 8:10:04 PM

@Peter Melzer that sounds doctored. :-)
by Nancy 5/9/2011 8:13:35 PM

@Peter Melzer Chuckling... I've looked at 40 years of radio logs filled in by an assortment of DJs in an assortment of states. I've learned to read entries like that as "Filled in the log from memory when things let up enough he realized he hadn't done it." I know nothing about nuclear industry logging, but I know CYA catchup logging an I assume human nature is all the same.
by radioguy 5/9/2011 8:13:56 PM

@radioguy i do not know the answer one way or the other, but my question would be ,,, the batteries are there for just that reason, so it would be intersting to know what the design parameters are for the battieries.... i (assume that you are correct, that the intial startup of the equipment would be a huge draw!!!) so they must have a prioity system list do you not think?
by fitter 5/9/2011 8:14:36 PM

@fitter I will see if I can find it here in a bit.
by Nancy 5/9/2011 8:15:10 PM

@nancy ty
by fitter 5/9/2011 8:15:29 PM

Yes, and what do the logic systems do when the primaries are down? Keep trying or move on or await instructions?
by radioguy 5/9/2011 8:16:14 PM

@radioguy could you clairify last post not sure what it means
by fitter 5/9/2011 8:19:37 PM

I didn't find the back up generator info yet but I did find some info on the batteries. They can only run the basic things like valves etc. There are also some mentions about the steam driven cooling loop energydeals.wordpress.com

atomicpowerreview.blogspot.com
by Nancy 5/9/2011 8:27:29 PM

So, there's a logic sequence that doles out the priorities? When the fisrt on its list are down, what does it doe, simply cascade through them?
by radioguy 5/9/2011 8:28:28 PM

@all The batteries were rated to apply max power for 8 hrs, This situation did not test them. Supposedly the betteries worked ( succesfully) for 4 min. then the gens took over, (exactly as supposed tio) until t + 46 min when the tsunami destroyed all external structures, including generqators and fuel supplies. Got any different data??
by RBeaner 5/9/2011 8:29:44 PM

@radioguy would the first irem be turn on the logic system.... HaHa could't resist
by fitter 5/9/2011 8:30:26 PM

cryptome.org
A facility for a sampling from seawater is seen after a fire was extinguished near No.4 reactor of the Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant in Fukushima Prefecture in this handout photo taken on April 12, 2011. A fire broke out at Japan's crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, operator Tokyo Electric and Power (TEPCO) said on Tuesday, although flames and smoke were no longer visible. A worker saw fire at a building near the No.4 reactor at around 6:38 a.m. (21:38 GMT) and a fire fighting unit of the Self Defence Forces was sent to fight the blaze, a TEPCO spokesman said. (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) EDITORIAL USE ONLY
by estacion via Cryptome.org 5/9/2011 8:31:22 PM

Ok, back to the farmum, seems that very little geology has been done in that area because...Tepco ows the place. Nancy pointed me to the link www.iitk.ac.in , in which one author is a Tepco employee. They were validating their analytical model as opposed to an actual earthquake od ~7.2 magnitiude and found they were getting it right. The report concerns Unit #6 and it sits on a mudstone base at 17m below the surface. Similar conditions may be inferred for the other buildings, but cannot guarentee that. Another study of the geology of the area was commissioned on nov. 5, 2007, "Implementation of Geologic and Ground Surveys at the Fukushima Dai-ichi and Dai-ini Power Stations following the Niigata-Chuetsu-Oki Earthquake", www.tepco.co.jp . I am still looking for that report. So far, this does not look good. It all depends on how consolidated this mudstone is and how much fracturing it has undergone. I would like to survey the site myself, but at this point, that seems highly unlikely.

by Jim 5/9/2011 8:33:20 PM