Japan Earthquake

Japan Earthquake | Page 2424

Prefectures looking at storage dumps search.japantimes.co.jp
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 2:11:52 PM

@dean It was first said to be the MOX plant that blew up, later they said it was a melting furnace for radioactive metal. The agency in charge is now being really hushed about the whole thing. The worker that died was buried in a sealed lead lined coffin. The worker that survived was heavily burned and was taken to a French military hospital from the civilian hospital. There was speculation that he had radiation related problems on top of his burns from the explosion.

Here is the info on the workers houseoffoust.com
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 2:14:33 PM

sad @ lilly, denial is always the jump to response,,,if the nuclear industry would just do once ounce of being honest and say there was a release and give some details the public would respond so much better...
by dean 9/29/2011 2:19:33 PM

@lilly that worker became the ultimate worse form of nuclear waste
by dean 9/29/2011 2:20:39 PM

I should have checked the local press before our discussion with RonD on the North Anna trip. Read this: "Dominion officials informed the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission on Tuesday night that the reactors tripped because seismic vibrations caused internal power levels to drop and control rods to automatically interrupt the nuclear fission process, shutting the units down, just after the quake struck at 1:51 p.m. approximately 11 miles away....The 'negative flux rate,' as the power drop is called, preceded the loss of electricity from an off-site transformer by a second and occurred just before plant operators could manually shut down the reactors. Dominion said the reactors tripped because of the vibrations and sensors within the reactors picking up the flux.
....This was an expected and desired plant response considering the magnitude of the earthquake."
In my opinion, Dominion is trying to sidestep the automatic seismic trip instrumentation issue. This sounds like an automatic seismic trip, but in actuality it was not. The trip was not initiated by seismic sensors. By contrast, it was initiated by power fluxes. The cause for the power fluxes remains to be explained. www2.dailyprogress.com
by Peter 9/29/2011 2:25:58 PM

@dean , I suppose their mandra was that whatever happens, the radioactivity will be contained in the buildings. This group think issue keeps me busy. Japan looks like in the tale of the emperor with new clothes. Now that the little kid cried foul, citizens wake up realizing that the emperor is in fact naked.
by Peter 9/29/2011 2:35:48 PM

@Peter Dominion seemed to be trying to give the impression they had a seismic trip to the public in the manner of having sesimic shutdown equipment ala Fukushima. The early reports were crafted to give that impression. The idea that N Anna does not have a seismic trip system and is on a fault line is very bad PR for Dominion. They don't want that talked about.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 2:36:59 PM

@ Peter and lilly.. that statement by Dominion, in my opinion, is so lame. It used non nuclear terms like a legal beagle wrote it so if it was used in court the mass confusion factor would come into play... I STAMP IT BOGUS
by dean 9/29/2011 2:45:22 PM

I cant remember if I posted this earlier or not. Switzerland to end nuclear power. www.google.com
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 2:47:14 PM

THAT is a confession that their plants critical control systems are not seismically qualified and also.. reactors trip due to over power not lowering power
by dean 9/29/2011 2:49:06 PM

@dean One report I saw was saying the power equipment out in the yard was moving causing the flow of power to have problems and that caused the trip. I really think the NRC needs to be doing its own investigation and determination. They may be doing so though since they have extra staff on hand at the plant.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 2:53:11 PM

@ lilly.. another research project,,, whewwwww... I have to zip to work for a bit.. they held me over for one more day.. will return
by dean 9/29/2011 2:55:06 PM

Video title-description translation reads: ""Near nuclear power plants", to stop Russian Crafts Exhibition
No longer hold exhibitions of the Hermitage Museum glassware. "Close to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power, radioactive material is affected by the exhibit" was the reason for that ..." www.youtube.com
by Ian 9/29/2011 2:58:44 PM

@Ian I was able to get the english subtitles to work. The Russians don't want the exhibit going to Gunma. The area does have really high radiation. Higher than chernobyl evacution areas. Getting delicate ancient treasures contaminated would be a big problem. Many things couldn't handle the aggressive cleaning needed to decontaminate.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 3:08:47 PM

@Peter For the North Anna quake shutdown the MSNBC transcript states the following. This has a more positive spin than Peter is seeing. "We learned today the north anna nuclear power plant in virginia was shut down during the east coast earthquake because of vibrations from the quake and not a loss of electrical power as plant operators first thought. This is the first time an earthquake has automatically shut down an operating nuke plant in this country. The regulatory commission tells nbc news that's how the systems should have reacted."
by RonD 9/29/2011 3:24:37 PM

The NRC's FAQs for NOrth Anna just state. Q. What is the direct cause of their reactors’ shut-down? A. It’s premature to respond to the question. Root cause still in progress. Not sure how often they update the FAQ PDF with new up to date info
by RonD 9/29/2011 3:27:19 PM

RonD, they still need to explain how the vibrations caused the negative power flux rates, :).
by Peter 9/29/2011 3:27:27 PM

... they will say it was all part of the plan.
by Peter 9/29/2011 3:28:59 PM

...reminds me of Heimlich in A BUG'S LIFE.
by Peter 9/29/2011 3:29:53 PM

@Peter I take all comments from big corps and the regulators they "own" with 2 grains of salt, since this is nuke related maybe I should use Potassium Iodide instead of table salt
by RonD 9/29/2011 3:33:33 PM

#Fukushima I Nuke Plant Reactor 2 Achieves "Cold Shutdown"

and Yomiuri Shinbun has this extremely hopeful diagram that they came up with to celebrate the occasion. It shows part of the melted fuel inside the shroud of the Reactor Pressure Vessel and part of it at the bottom of the RPV, both cooled below 100 degrees Celsius inside the RPV, supposedly.
ex-skf.blogspot.com
by Majj 9/29/2011 3:47:07 PM

by Majj via Yomiuri.co.jp 9/29/2011 3:48:00 PM

Fukushima Daiichi, below 100 degrees 1-3 Reactor Unit. translate.google.com
by Majj 9/29/2011 3:48:55 PM

Oh my what a load or horse apples on North Anna. Ron do you have links for the MNSBC (a text version if there is one) and the NRC document? I can post the missing information in a post on the website. That is extremely misleading. Dominion has tried that before. Sounds like they may be feeding that to MSNBC
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 4:13:32 PM

My notes from that radiation chart.
Where was this radiation chart of fuel pools from?

Seems 1 and 4 aren't bad but 2 and 3 are at about the 1 SV level that will give you
radiation sickness.

The chart has lots of stuff with short half-lifes even in Unit 4 which just has
warm fuel in it, which indicates a lot of criticality still going on even after
scram or in the case of unit 4, nothing in the core at all, stuff is either getting
in from other units or being brewed in the pool for lack of cooling.

images.scribblelive.com
pbadupws.nrc.gov
March 25 radioactivity readings
surface
1 60mSv/h
2 >1,000
3 750
4 .50
surface of water

Way down the letters on p. 46 is a really good summary of radiation. I sorted by levels,
the dry wells will kill in an instant, debris will make you sick even outside if you
stand next to it. Levels at the gates are enough to make you worried long term, but
no firmly documented fatalities levels, and Tokyo, as it was NEVER reported was at
background levels, probably still is, though that's not looking at vegetation or
sewage in particular.

apr 11 "document from the Operations Center detailing radiatin levels around Fukushima"
p.46
30 sv/hr in dry wells unit 1, 2
20 sv/hr near drywell 3
--- will kill you ---
>1 sv/hr surface unit 2 water
1 sv/hr debris outside of reactor 3
--- will make you sick ---
u=micro
--- may cause long term health problems ---
645 usv main building
170 usv 30 km away high, decreasing to 25
82 usv/hr main gate
--- equal to normal levels ---
0.03-0.08 Tokyo radiation levels = background level

typical cs-137 30km from .5 to 4.5 bq/m^3
half of sampling beyond 40km i131 and cs137 below detectable levels
soil samples april 5 and 6 i131 41,000 to 200,000 bq/kg
cs137 25,000 to 100,000 bq/kg
dose = 4.4 rem in 1st year vs EPA relocation guideline of 2 rem
leafy vegetation 300,000 bq/kg for i131 1.4million bq/kg for cs-137 at 40 km northwest
FDA limits 170 bqk for i131 1200 bqk for cs137+cs134.
Japan limits 2000 for i131 500 for cesium in food
Tokyo radiation levels indistinguishable from mad-maded background 0.03-0.08 usv/hr
by artnuke 9/29/2011 4:14:08 PM

@lillymunster the NBC Nightly News info sounds like a press release and does not match the info in the NRC web meeting about North Anna, not sure if there is new info that explains the new story. I have not seen anything directly from the NRC, the FAQ still says the direct cause for the plant shutdown is "Root cause still in progress". Try the following link to watch the NBC video, there is a transcript option at the bottom of the video. You get a 60 sec commercial before the 30 sec of news. www.msnbc.msn.com
by RonD 9/29/2011 4:27:19 PM

@lillymunster and re-reading the newspaper article the peter linked also seems like an incomplete answer as Peter pointed out. www2.dailyprogress.com I suspect plant operators want to have "root cause" for shutdown before the meeting so they can restart the plant after the next weeks NRC meeting.
by RonD 9/29/2011 4:37:33 PM

Hi@all here is info on North Anna: tinyurl.com
by Liz 9/29/2011 4:44:06 PM

@RonD Oh I bet is WAS a press release. The media is lazy, if a company or PR hack hands them something they will repeat it without checking. How many people heard that and decided N Anna was all safe and not to worry...
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 4:45:47 PM

From the link Liz posted (Reuters) "Dominion Resources officials said vibration from an August 23 earthquake in Virginia detected inside the two North Anna nuclear reactors caused the units to shut rather than a loss of power into the station, a Dominion spokesman said on Tuesday."

Dominion is on a PR blitz. Each of those stories is saying it almost phrase for phrase. This is a game by Dominion to get the public off their back so they can restart.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 4:47:50 PM

Reading the Reuters article and what Ron mentioned on the MSNBC one. Dominion is purposely omitting important information on the vibration in an attempt to make it look like the quake tripped proper safety equipment that they don't really have. Very creative PR, the jerk that wrote that up should get a bonus.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 4:50:33 PM

@lillymunster good evening
by elainekirk 9/29/2011 5:01:16 PM

@lillymunster , from the Daily Progress article: "Dominion officials informed the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission on Tuesday night..." I searched the NRC site and could not find a trace of this filing.
by Peter 9/29/2011 5:04:23 PM

@Peter I keep all the NRC emails, there were a few from NA. Let me go look
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:15:27 PM

Hi Elaine! How was your day? :-)
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:15:36 PM

Still looking through emails - found this statement by Dominion to NRC about the issues in the core:

NAPS Updated Final Safety Analysis Report (UFSAR), Section 4.2.2.1 describes the
design basis for the NAPS RVI structural support components which includes
consideration of seismic loads, either from an operating-basis earthquake (OBE) or a
design basis earthquake/safe-shutdown earthquake (DBE/SSE), as described in Table
3.2-1. UFSAR Table 3.7-4 lists maximum seismic stresses, maximum combined
stresses (including seismic stresses) and the allowable stresses for safety-related plant
components under OBE and DBE/SSE conditions. The NAPS UFSAR contains many
citations for specific design criteria related to seismic loads. For example, UFSAR,
Section 4.2.2 of the UFSAR states transverse loads from earthquake acceleration,
coolant cross flow, and vibration are carried by the core barrel shell and distributed
between the lower radial support to the vessel wall, and to the vessel flange and that the
transverse loads of the fuel assemblies are transmitted to the core barrel shell by direct
connection of the lower core plate to the barrel wall and by upper core plate alignment
pins that are welded into the core barrel. In addition, Table 4.2-1 provides the maximum
allowable deflections for the RVI component design at NAPS. Section 4.2.3.1.4 of the
NAPS UFSAR states that a dynamic seismic analysis is required for the control rod drive
mechanisms when a seismic disturbance has been postulated. The UFSAR specifically
states that this analysis in needed to confirm the ability of the mechanisms to meet - 3
ASME Code Section III allowable stresses and to confirm its ability to trip when

subjected to the seismic disturbance.

For the UFSAR citations provided above, specify how the current design elements that
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:20:11 PM

@Peter thanks for looking for NRC info, that was what I was curious about. A different question, was the refueling on North Anna Unit 2 planned before the quake? What were the results of inspecting the fuel rods that were in use during the quake after they did the refueling?
by RonD 9/29/2011 5:20:19 PM

Went back to 9-21 - no submission related to Dominion's claim submitted to the NRc and sent out via email. Email goes out first. Dean may be on some email lists I am not, we should ask him to check his when he returns.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:23:22 PM

@RonD a side note on the fuel rods. Dominion wasn't going to do any fuel rod inspections until the NRC told them they had to. They were not even going to inspect the core in relation to the accident.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:24:33 PM

@lillymunster yep I remember that discussion, to my unexpert view I'd want to know what happened inside the Unit 2 reactor vessel before I tried to restart Unit 1 or Unit 2
by RonD 9/29/2011 5:26:50 PM

@RonD I had more confidence in the NRC on this after hearing them voicing concerns that seemed to have much more cautious logic than Dominion was displaying.
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:31:58 PM

@lillymunster looking at the NRC web page, the North Anna Oct 3 meeting is a conference call only meeting (not web video) and you need to contact the NRC to get on the conference call
by RonD 9/29/2011 5:41:25 PM

www.tepco.co.jp is reactor 4 on fire?
by Liz 9/29/2011 5:45:50 PM

www.jma.go.jp

oopsi, anyone noticed this quake ? 19:05 JST 29 Sep 2011 Fukushima-ken Oki M5.6 5+
by Edano via Jma.go.jp 9/29/2011 5:48:06 PM

@Liz TBS looks clear, and windy up in the hills. Maybe the common pool again? They have been working on it and need to replace the power panel. Either that or something on the ground is on fire.
www.youtube.com
by lillymunster 9/29/2011 5:49:02 PM